Re: [P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] NEW FROM VERSO: INVENTING THE FUTURE BY NICK SRNICEK AND ALEX WILLIAMS
I don't see how this is contradictory, we don't have the power to implement this in the world, 'all at once' but certain regions and countries can set the example ; there are also groups working for a global BIG but I can't recall the name for now At least while we wait for this, http://p2pfoundation.net/International_Simultaneous_Policy_Organization On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 6:40 AM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
Well, the problem is more that it is not very well thought out and coming out over 50 years after Jorn's *Situationists and Automation *I feel we should have something a bit more coherent. (I am sorry, I was just reading that this afternoon)
If the idea is that this is universal, i.e. guaranteed to everyone regardless of their national documentation, immigration status etc. etc. well then it does have profound implications. But hey, I don't think that's what is being discussed - can anyone go to Brazil and get some of this B.I.G.?
Anything else reinforces xenophobia as can be seen in the UK where anti-immigration sentiments have been whipped up by talk about benefit tourism.
I don't understand how having B.I.G. in one country can take us much further than another debased form of socialism in one country?
all the best
Fabian
On 02 November 2015 at 12:36 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
agreed,
but I think there is one thing that proponents underestimate,
as Polanyi showed, making labour into a commodity was really central for capitalism, and the basic income would profoundly undo that, in fact making labour into a commons,
it is worth fighting for, but let's not imagine it will be easy as this is in fact a very radical proposal, which will overturn a lot of common logics .. for example, it is likely that intellectual jobs will be paid less, physical labor more, as no one will want to do them,
Michel
On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 7:32 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
I agree with you Michel, it is not necessary to the argument for basic income. But it enables us to see the *necessity* for the BI rather than seeing it as just a utopian dream. The lack of jobs, and the continued demand for people to be in work, makes no sense unless you see it in the background of developing automation which is replacing labour, and which is traditionally resisted by labour. It is this attitude which needs to open to seeing automation as serving our interests rather than being the enemy which deprives us of work.
Anna
On 2 Nov 2015, at 12:05, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
this hypothesis weakens the book in my opinion, it is not necessary to posit this to be for the basic income ...
Michel
On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:47 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
Good question Ursula, and not one I can answer fully. It is the term the authors use on the book cover. They say: "FULL AUTOMATION With automation.......machines can increasingly produce all necessary goods and services, while also releasing humanity from the effort of producing them. For this reason, we argue that the tendencies towards automation and the replacement of human labour should be enthusiastically accelerated and targeted as a political project of the left. This is a project that takes an existing capitalist tendency and seeks to push it beyond the acceptable parameters of capitalist social relations." (P109)
A vision of a post work society where people's time is free to use as they wish is the basis for this demand. If this becomes a project of the left, hopefully there is more possibility to influence and guide this tendency so that it serves all of humanity rather than just the few.
Anna
On 2 Nov 2015, at 10:00, Ursula Huws < [email protected]> wrote:
What do you mean by ‘full automation’? Ursula
*From:* Anna Harris [mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>] *Sent:* 02 November 2015 09:19 *To:* [email protected]; [email protected] *Cc:* Ursula Huws <[email protected]> *Subject:* NEW FROM VERSO: INVENTING THE FUTURE BY NICK SRNICEK AND ALEX WILLIAMS
This book offers the framework of building a campaign strategy around the demand for full automation and a basic income for all. This is not a short term demand but a vision of what can be achieved if labour groups come together with academics and supporters to design the future.
Personally I believe they have drawn the supporting network too narrowly. But that only makes the case for this campaign even more strongly. I wrote some time ago:
BIG (basic income guaranteed) may be revolutionary, but it does not need the economic system to change drastically in order to be introduced. In that sense it is reformist, although the effects are revolutionary. The big advantages are that 1. it can be introduced without massive changes to the economic system. 2. It is a very simple idea which can be appreciated by people without much knowledge of the economy. 3. It has been tried in pilot experiments, and found to be successful in stimulating economic activity. (Brazil) 4. Many economists agree (James Robertson, Jeremy Rifkin, Edward Snowden, Richard Swift) that with technology replacing many jobs that previously required human labour, BIG of some sort is necessary. 5. Naomi Klein highlights it in her latest book This Changes Everything, as one of the game changing battles that 'don't merely aim to change laws, but changes patterns of thought.'(p 641)
The authors are coming to Leeds for an open discussion on Nov 14.
https://www.facebook.com/events/1624336424483090/
I believe that this campaign could appeal widely across all political spectrums, and would welcome more discussion on this list.
Anna
_______________________________________________ NetworkedLabour mailing list [email protected] http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
<http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
<http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ _______________________________________________ NetworkedLabour mailing list [email protected] http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
Yes. I think the authors are clear. This has to be an international movement, with long term goals, rather than national or local political aims. "It would mean building upon the post-nation-state territory of 'the stack' - that global infrastructure that enables our digital world today". Could others enlighten what is meant by 'the stack'? Anna
On 3 Nov 2015, at 02:18, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
I don't see how this is contradictory,
we don't have the power to implement this in the world, 'all at once' but certain regions and countries can set the example ; there are also groups working for a global BIG but I can't recall the name for now
At least while we wait for this, http://p2pfoundation.net/International_Simultaneous_Policy_Organization
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 6:40 AM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: Well, the problem is more that it is not very well thought out and coming out over 50 years after Jorn's Situationists and Automation I feel we should have something a bit more coherent. (I am sorry, I was just reading that this afternoon)
If the idea is that this is universal, i.e. guaranteed to everyone regardless of their national documentation, immigration status etc. etc. well then it does have profound implications. But hey, I don't think that's what is being discussed - can anyone go to Brazil and get some of this B.I.G.?
Anything else reinforces xenophobia as can be seen in the UK where anti-immigration sentiments have been whipped up by talk about benefit tourism.
I don't understand how having B.I.G. in one country can take us much further than another debased form of socialism in one country?
all the best
Fabian
On 02 November 2015 at 12:36 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
agreed,
but I think there is one thing that proponents underestimate,
as Polanyi showed, making labour into a commodity was really central for capitalism, and the basic income would profoundly undo that, in fact making labour into a commons,
it is worth fighting for, but let's not imagine it will be easy as this is in fact a very radical proposal, which will overturn a lot of common logics .. for example, it is likely that intellectual jobs will be paid less, physical labor more, as no one will want to do them,
Michel
On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 7:32 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
I agree with you Michel, it is not necessary to the argument for basic income. But it enables us to see the necessity for the BI rather than seeing it as just a utopian dream. The lack of jobs, and the continued demand for people to be in work, makes no sense unless you see it in the background of developing automation which is replacing labour, and which is traditionally resisted by labour. It is this attitude which needs to open to seeing automation as serving our interests rather than being the enemy which deprives us of work.
Anna
On 2 Nov 2015, at 12:05, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
this hypothesis weakens the book in my opinion, it is not necessary to posit this to be for the basic income ...
Michel
On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:47 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
Good question Ursula, and not one I can answer fully. It is the term the authors use on the book cover. They say: "FULL AUTOMATION With automation.......machines can increasingly produce all necessary goods and services, while also releasing humanity from the effort of producing them. For this reason, we argue that the tendencies towards automation and the replacement of human labour should be enthusiastically accelerated and targeted as a political project of the left. This is a project that takes an existing capitalist tendency and seeks to push it beyond the acceptable parameters of capitalist social relations." (P109)
A vision of a post work society where people's time is free to use as they wish is the basis for this demand. If this becomes a project of the left, hopefully there is more possibility to influence and guide this tendency so that it serves all of humanity rather than just the few.
Anna
On 2 Nov 2015, at 10:00, Ursula Huws < [email protected]> wrote: What do you mean by ‘full automation’? Ursula
From: Anna Harris [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 02 November 2015 09:19 To: [email protected]; [email protected] Cc: Ursula Huws <[email protected]> Subject: NEW FROM VERSO: INVENTING THE FUTURE BY NICK SRNICEK AND ALEX WILLIAMS
This book offers the framework of building a campaign strategy around the demand for full automation and a basic income for all. This is not a short term demand but a vision of what can be achieved if labour groups come together with academics and supporters to design the future.
Personally I believe they have drawn the supporting network too narrowly. But that only makes the case for this campaign even more strongly. I wrote some time ago:
BIG (basic income guaranteed) may be revolutionary, but it does not need the economic system to change drastically in order to be introduced. In that sense it is reformist, although the effects are revolutionary. The big advantages are that 1. it can be introduced without massive changes to the economic system. 2. It is a very simple idea which can be appreciated by people without much knowledge of the economy. 3. It has been tried in pilot experiments, and found to be successful in stimulating economic activity. (Brazil) 4. Many economists agree (James Robertson, Jeremy Rifkin, Edward Snowden, Richard Swift) that with technology replacing many jobs that previously required human labour, BIG of some sort is necessary. 5. Naomi Klein highlights it in her latest book This Changes Everything, as one of the game changing battles that 'don't merely aim to change laws, but changes patterns of thought.'(p 641)
The authors are coming to Leeds for an open discussion on Nov 14.
https://www.facebook.com/events/1624336424483090/
I believe that this campaign could appeal widely across all political spectrums, and would welcome more discussion on this list.
Anna
_______________________________________________ NetworkedLabour mailing list [email protected] http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ _______________________________________________ NetworkedLabour mailing list [email protected] http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
I use 'stack' as well, in the context of an 'open source stack' for sustainable (free, fair and sustainable) production, i.e. different layers, design layer, community design for resiliance /abundance rather than planned obsolescence open sourcing design, logistics , accounting to obtain true circular economy mutualizing physical resources p2p capital to avoid financial tax of banking system distributed machinery for local production on demand, to avoid transportation costs, artificial needs, and overproduction etc .. On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 2:12 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
Yes. I think the authors are clear. This has to be an international movement, with long term goals, rather than national or local political aims.
"It would mean building upon the post-nation-state territory of 'the stack' - that global infrastructure that enables our digital world today".
Could others enlighten what is meant by 'the stack'?
Anna
On 3 Nov 2015, at 02:18, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
I don't see how this is contradictory,
we don't have the power to implement this in the world, 'all at once' but certain regions and countries can set the example ; there are also groups working for a global BIG but I can't recall the name for now
At least while we wait for this, http://p2pfoundation.net/International_Simultaneous_Policy_Organization
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 6:40 AM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
Well, the problem is more that it is not very well thought out and coming out over 50 years after Jorn's *Situationists and Automation *I feel we should have something a bit more coherent. (I am sorry, I was just reading that this afternoon)
If the idea is that this is universal, i.e. guaranteed to everyone regardless of their national documentation, immigration status etc. etc. well then it does have profound implications. But hey, I don't think that's what is being discussed - can anyone go to Brazil and get some of this B.I.G.?
Anything else reinforces xenophobia as can be seen in the UK where anti-immigration sentiments have been whipped up by talk about benefit tourism.
I don't understand how having B.I.G. in one country can take us much further than another debased form of socialism in one country?
all the best
Fabian
On 02 November 2015 at 12:36 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
agreed,
but I think there is one thing that proponents underestimate,
as Polanyi showed, making labour into a commodity was really central for capitalism, and the basic income would profoundly undo that, in fact making labour into a commons,
it is worth fighting for, but let's not imagine it will be easy as this is in fact a very radical proposal, which will overturn a lot of common logics .. for example, it is likely that intellectual jobs will be paid less, physical labor more, as no one will want to do them,
Michel
On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 7:32 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
I agree with you Michel, it is not necessary to the argument for basic income. But it enables us to see the *necessity* for the BI rather than seeing it as just a utopian dream. The lack of jobs, and the continued demand for people to be in work, makes no sense unless you see it in the background of developing automation which is replacing labour, and which is traditionally resisted by labour. It is this attitude which needs to open to seeing automation as serving our interests rather than being the enemy which deprives us of work.
Anna
On 2 Nov 2015, at 12:05, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote:
this hypothesis weakens the book in my opinion, it is not necessary to posit this to be for the basic income ...
Michel
On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:47 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
Good question Ursula, and not one I can answer fully. It is the term the authors use on the book cover. They say: "FULL AUTOMATION With automation.......machines can increasingly produce all necessary goods and services, while also releasing humanity from the effort of producing them. For this reason, we argue that the tendencies towards automation and the replacement of human labour should be enthusiastically accelerated and targeted as a political project of the left. This is a project that takes an existing capitalist tendency and seeks to push it beyond the acceptable parameters of capitalist social relations." (P109)
A vision of a post work society where people's time is free to use as they wish is the basis for this demand. If this becomes a project of the left, hopefully there is more possibility to influence and guide this tendency so that it serves all of humanity rather than just the few.
Anna
On 2 Nov 2015, at 10:00, Ursula Huws < [email protected]> wrote:
What do you mean by ‘full automation’? Ursula
*From:* Anna Harris [mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>] *Sent:* 02 November 2015 09:19 *To:* [email protected]; [email protected] *Cc:* Ursula Huws <[email protected]> *Subject:* NEW FROM VERSO: INVENTING THE FUTURE BY NICK SRNICEK AND ALEX WILLIAMS
This book offers the framework of building a campaign strategy around the demand for full automation and a basic income for all. This is not a short term demand but a vision of what can be achieved if labour groups come together with academics and supporters to design the future.
Personally I believe they have drawn the supporting network too narrowly. But that only makes the case for this campaign even more strongly. I wrote some time ago:
BIG (basic income guaranteed) may be revolutionary, but it does not need the economic system to change drastically in order to be introduced. In that sense it is reformist, although the effects are revolutionary. The big advantages are that 1. it can be introduced without massive changes to the economic system. 2. It is a very simple idea which can be appreciated by people without much knowledge of the economy. 3. It has been tried in pilot experiments, and found to be successful in stimulating economic activity. (Brazil) 4. Many economists agree (James Robertson, Jeremy Rifkin, Edward Snowden, Richard Swift) that with technology replacing many jobs that previously required human labour, BIG of some sort is necessary. 5. Naomi Klein highlights it in her latest book This Changes Everything, as one of the game changing battles that 'don't merely aim to change laws, but changes patterns of thought.'(p 641)
The authors are coming to Leeds for an open discussion on Nov 14.
https://www.facebook.com/events/1624336424483090/
I believe that this campaign could appeal widely across all political spectrums, and would welcome more discussion on this list.
Anna
_______________________________________________ NetworkedLabour mailing list [email protected] http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
<http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
<http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ _______________________________________________ NetworkedLabour mailing list [email protected] http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
<http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
-- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
participants (2)
-
Anna Harris -
Michel Bauwens