Re: [P2P-F] money as debt p. 2
This is a difficult debate for me Tadit, as I have never truly studied MMT, and what kind of money is best. I'd like to posit some general principles as to what a commons/p2p friendly policy would be ... - first of all, I think monetary freedom is important, which for me means that next to sovereign money that is governed by the collective, and we need at least a national and global level, we also must accept community-driven 'socially sovereign' money ... so repression of successful local money by the state is not acceptable - money should be a commons, I'm not sure exactly what that means, but it should not be subjected to speculation, and is a public utility that should be protected from private misuse ...; how exactly can we make money into a commons, that is an important question for me, in which I would like to be educated ; instinctevely I'm against the private for-profit creation of money as it is currently practiced - third, money has a design, and that design should be a design that does not permit excessive accumulation, nor require infinite growth before encountering MMT, the people I listened to were: * Bernard Lietaer, because of his recognition of all the levels, and his effort to have an answer for each level * Thomas Greco, and his idea for local credit commons, based on the real interactions of local players; weakness here is that it can't be applied rapidly enough in national crisis situations and this is why I liked the approach of Ellen Brown, because of her insistence, with many documented examples of the past, that people-friendly governments can issue money as a productive investment, and that it is not inflationary in such circumstances to summarize: - a pluralist money system that can operate on local, regional, national, and global levels, issued by either sovereign states or local or affinity communities - conceived as a commons / public utility that cannot be manipulated by private interests - designed in such a way that it does not create negative social and natural externalities (counter-example: bitcoin is socially sovereign but has the wrong design) Perhaps if you have time one day, you could write about how you see money as a commons, and how MMT stacks up against these contemporary 'p2p' driven demands One question for MMT, what kind of government would want to implement this? Michel On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 7:41 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
------- Forwarded message ------- From: [email protected] To: p2p-foundation <p2p-foundation@lists.**ourproject.org<[email protected]>>, "Michel Bauwens" <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] money as debt p. 2 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 08:20:51 -0400
Thank you, -Michel
I watched the entire video, and have seen Money as Debt One several times. First, the sophistication of Grignon understanding of economics has greatly expanded. There are a few quibbles in details and the development and identification. He is advocating for a version of MMT/FF. He never actually addresses the state origin of money per se, and it is a major objective. He never explicitly defines money as a COMMONS, and it is central to his narrative.
You will have to excuse me on two points of irony. Grignon mentions both the Money Masters crew and the American Monetary institute, and he never mentions MMT/FF or any of the participants in that discourse. It is a bit like rolling out a plan and then not giving credit to the community which has co-developed that bundle of ideas and principles. Not posing the MMT/FF position as a legitimate participant in this immediate discussion becomes a significant problem for me. The MMT/FF position on monetary reform is actually the discovery that the bus named "Our Economy" actually has a steering wheel and other control features. The advocacy of monetary reform ends up being a bit pointless unless there is a substantial body of practice that can propose new policies and move toward new fiscal objectives.
To a large degree, MMT/FF is what we can do with monetary reform that reoccupies the currency commons being held as a privately held franchise. The MMT/FF people are also of the opinion that new major legislation is not necessary, the reforms that are needed could be done as easily as US Pres. Nixon closing the Gold window in 1971 by executive order. Most of the banking process that would be necessary to support the MMT/FF instrumental process as already established though currently under private franchise.
The MMT/FF people seem to feel that the move for legislation, is more of an educational and political strategy toward a public discourse, not necessarily having a value in the literal reform agenda. In his roll out of "alternatives" he mentions LETS (1.0) and Timebanks, which are specifically debt based exchange models. They are credit union based, in a sense, currencies that operate under banking laws and conventions. In that there is a strong similarity between credit unions/thifts and debt based "alternatives," it would likely be that there could be a legal point here that debt based "alternatives" should be placed under the same banking legislation and regulations. Operating across national boundaries would seem to attract the same sort of scrutiny as is being given the hawala networks.
The second irony here for me is that although Grignon seems to advocate for MMT/FF practices and principles, that energy is primarily directed toward debt based alternatives. The CRX becomes a sort of missing link in the process and in the discourse of what alternatives are possible. To rely so much upon the MMT/FF discourse only tacitly acknowledged, and then channeling reform energies into the centralization of electoral politics and toward debt based semi-alternatives does not seem particularly progressive in detail. There are nuances of the word "Open" that seem to be absent in the named cast of participants. Perhaps there will be a "Money As Debt III: Money as Asset/Sustainable Economics".
as we go, Tadit
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 03:43:07 -0400, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=lsmbWBpnCNk<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsmbWBpnCNk>
hi chris, could you embed this with the youtube abstact, post-date oct 25 or after,
perhaps Tadit could offer an extra comment to add to it,
Michel
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
thanks for this but as an aside: rather than shuffle stacked-details of received political ideologies, I've been curious about the outcome from implementing (as much as practical), a "clean slate/state" -- [hence, my interest in (nearly) self-sufficient islands and the DADTP] eg.: on a smaller scale, what would actually transpire if a vacant downtown storefront (or former art gallery,) was simply kept unlocked indefinitely? we've been falsely programmed (circular/insular logic,) to assume the worst from the most disadvantaged AND the privileged... /:b -- Island 7.0 is now available online! ==================================== http://bbrace.net/islands/island7/island7.html http://bradbrace.net/islands/island7/island7.html Global Islands Project -- ongoing series of multi-media pdf-ebooks/field-recordings -- a pastoral, pictorial and phonic elicitation of island parameters. An intensive examination of small islands and their paradigmatic solutions to globalism. Your feudal-world is based on mutual relief at your common corruption. Maybe some cultures are based on even worse. But that wouldn't change the bad faith of it and as years go by, you wake at night in terror of your whole life being an act of bad faith, where everything is self-interest and nothing more, where every human interaction is driven by a silent, even subconscious calculation of some ulterior motive, to the point that a sea of bad faith has taken over your whole life, there's no small island left from which you can even try to build a bridge of good faith, because even that effort becomes suspect, even good faith is nothing but self-interested, even altruism is nothing but solipsistic, even your professed agonizing right here right now is nothing but a gesture, made to the conscience in order to assure it that it exists. http://bradbrace.net/id.html http://bbrace.net/id.html Island 1.0 is Ambergris Caye, Belize Island 2.0 is Koh Si Chang, Thailand Island 3.0 is Lamu, Kenya Island 4.0 is Narikel Jingira, Bangladesh Island 5.0 is Isla Mais, Nicaragua Island 6.0 are The Grenadines, West Indies Island 7.0 is Hateruma (Yaeyama), Japan Global Islands Project: Island 1.0 -> http://bbrace.net/islands/island1/island1.html or http://bradbrace.net/islands/island1/island1.html -- over 800 images and hour-long audiotrack -- 69mb -- (acrobat 6) Island 2.0 -> http://bbrace.net/islands/island2/island2.html or http://bradbrace.net/islands/island2/island2.html -- over 535 images and hour-long audiotrack -- 78mb -- (acrobat 6) *** http://www.archive.org/details/global_islands_project_island_1.0 http://www.archive.org/details/global_islands_project_island_2.0 http://www.archive.org/details/global_islands_project_island_3.0 http://www.archive.org/details/global_islands_project_island_4.0 http://www.archive.org/details/global_islands_project_island_5.0 http://www.archive.org/details/global_islands_project_island_6.0 *** Global Islands Project -- ongoing series of multi-media pdf-books -- a pastoral, pictorial and phonic elicitation of island parameters... Vientos del pueblo me llevan Vientos del pueblo me arrastran Me eparcen mi corazon Ye me aventan la garganta http://www.bbrace.net/id.html http://bradbrace.net/id.html bbs: brad brace sound http://69.64.229.114:8000 http://www.bbrace.net/undisclosed.html Waters Colours: http://bradbrace.net/webgallerywc/wc.html Eroticized Japanese/Malaysian Snack Foods: http://bradbrace.net/greenscreen.html Additional GIP texts/blog: http://bbrace.net/wordpress/ http://bradbrace.net/wordpress/ 12 mailing list: You cannot politically defy the institutions when all you really wanted was to be clasped to their bosoms and hope in time to be cherished under the very framework of oppressive values you are thinking of overcoming. That would be co-optation, revolution only in the sense of a circulation of elites rather than the extirpation of the very impulses of elitism. To subscribe to 12-list, simply send a message with the word "subscribe" in the Subject: field to [email protected] /:b
- third, money has a design, and that design should be a design that does not permit excessive accumulation, nor require infinite growth
The first thing we should do is not allow money to self reproduce. If we allow this , then money will always be accumulated in an exponential way(easy math exercise). Even if the growth might be slow at the beginning and despite the fact that there are other ways to produce money, this growth or tendency will always prevail in the end. Money is dept... 2011/10/16 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
This is a difficult debate for me Tadit, as I have never truly studied MMT, and what kind of money is best.
I'd like to posit some general principles as to what a commons/p2p friendly policy would be ...
- first of all, I think monetary freedom is important, which for me means that next to sovereign money that is governed by the collective, and we need at least a national and global level, we also must accept community-driven 'socially sovereign' money ... so repression of successful local money by the state is not acceptable
- money should be a commons, I'm not sure exactly what that means, but it should not be subjected to speculation, and is a public utility that should be protected from private misuse ...; how exactly can we make money into a commons, that is an important question for me, in which I would like to be educated ; instinctevely I'm against the private for-profit creation of money as it is currently practiced
- third, money has a design, and that design should be a design that does not permit excessive accumulation, nor require infinite growth
before encountering MMT, the people I listened to were:
* Bernard Lietaer, because of his recognition of all the levels, and his effort to have an answer for each level
* Thomas Greco, and his idea for local credit commons, based on the real interactions of local players; weakness here is that it can't be applied rapidly enough in national crisis situations
and this is why I liked the approach of Ellen Brown, because of her insistence, with many documented examples of the past, that people-friendly governments can issue money as a productive investment, and that it is not inflationary in such circumstances
to summarize:
- a pluralist money system that can operate on local, regional, national, and global levels, issued by either sovereign states or local or affinity communities
- conceived as a commons / public utility that cannot be manipulated by private interests
- designed in such a way that it does not create negative social and natural externalities (counter-example: bitcoin is socially sovereign but has the wrong design)
Perhaps if you have time one day, you could write about how you see money as a commons, and how MMT stacks up against these contemporary 'p2p' driven demands
One question for MMT, what kind of government would want to implement this?
Michel
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 7:41 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
------- Forwarded message ------- From: [email protected] To: p2p-foundation <p2p-foundation@lists.**ourproject.org<[email protected]>>, "Michel Bauwens" <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] money as debt p. 2 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 08:20:51 -0400
Thank you, -Michel
I watched the entire video, and have seen Money as Debt One several times. First, the sophistication of Grignon understanding of economics has greatly expanded. There are a few quibbles in details and the development and identification. He is advocating for a version of MMT/FF. He never actually addresses the state origin of money per se, and it is a major objective. He never explicitly defines money as a COMMONS, and it is central to his narrative.
You will have to excuse me on two points of irony. Grignon mentions both the Money Masters crew and the American Monetary institute, and he never mentions MMT/FF or any of the participants in that discourse. It is a bit like rolling out a plan and then not giving credit to the community which has co-developed that bundle of ideas and principles. Not posing the MMT/FF position as a legitimate participant in this immediate discussion becomes a significant problem for me. The MMT/FF position on monetary reform is actually the discovery that the bus named "Our Economy" actually has a steering wheel and other control features. The advocacy of monetary reform ends up being a bit pointless unless there is a substantial body of practice that can propose new policies and move toward new fiscal objectives.
To a large degree, MMT/FF is what we can do with monetary reform that reoccupies the currency commons being held as a privately held franchise. The MMT/FF people are also of the opinion that new major legislation is not necessary, the reforms that are needed could be done as easily as US Pres. Nixon closing the Gold window in 1971 by executive order. Most of the banking process that would be necessary to support the MMT/FF instrumental process as already established though currently under private franchise.
The MMT/FF people seem to feel that the move for legislation, is more of an educational and political strategy toward a public discourse, not necessarily having a value in the literal reform agenda. In his roll out of "alternatives" he mentions LETS (1.0) and Timebanks, which are specifically debt based exchange models. They are credit union based, in a sense, currencies that operate under banking laws and conventions. In that there is a strong similarity between credit unions/thifts and debt based "alternatives," it would likely be that there could be a legal point here that debt based "alternatives" should be placed under the same banking legislation and regulations. Operating across national boundaries would seem to attract the same sort of scrutiny as is being given the hawala networks.
The second irony here for me is that although Grignon seems to advocate for MMT/FF practices and principles, that energy is primarily directed toward debt based alternatives. The CRX becomes a sort of missing link in the process and in the discourse of what alternatives are possible. To rely so much upon the MMT/FF discourse only tacitly acknowledged, and then channeling reform energies into the centralization of electoral politics and toward debt based semi-alternatives does not seem particularly progressive in detail. There are nuances of the word "Open" that seem to be absent in the named cast of participants. Perhaps there will be a "Money As Debt III: Money as Asset/Sustainable Economics".
as we go, Tadit
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 03:43:07 -0400, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=lsmbWBpnCNk<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsmbWBpnCNk>
hi chris, could you embed this with the youtube abstact, post-date oct 25 or after,
perhaps Tadit could offer an extra comment to add to it,
Michel
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
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participants (3)
-
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis -
Michel Bauwens -
{ brad brace }