hi bob, there are conflicts about fairness and fair rewards, which I would not call capitalist infighting, since it based on feelings of justice , reciprocity etc.. and then there are conflicts where people want more than the other, and use market dynamics to get it, is that the case in the faircoin community ? Michel On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:38 PM, Bob Haugen <[email protected]> wrote:

I agree that crypto currencies are taking off, and we know people who have made some money and are now trying to do things with it.

We also see for example Fair.coop that is able to pay people because of their successful crypto currency, but it has also engendered a lot of infighting along totally capitalist principles. So I agree at least partly with Michael. Not everybody descended into competition, but enough to make the atmosphere smell of sulfur and brimstone now and then...

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 12:26 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:

...

there is a paradox though,

* sovereign money is still going strong

* complementary curriencies exist in spades, but are everywhere really marginal

* Crypto currencies have many problematic aspects, but they are generating massive investments in new infrastructures

* we have theories of what money should be, but they are not implemented ...

in that context, taking something that seems to take root, but transforming it to broader egaliterian interests, seems a good strategy

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 6:17 PM, Michael Linton < [email protected]> wrote:

...

There's much good thinking here, but thinking still inside the old familiar box of asset, control, property, distribution ....

So their ideas are still firmly embedded in systems of rivalrous competition.

The ends they project can be much more easily achieved by other means. A few days ago on a thread about "weaponized" currencies, I wrote

...

The Rivalrous and the Anti-Rivalrous | Deep Code Experiment: Episode

2 -

...

...

Jordan Greenhall on a roll

STIR (2013) - the key distinction is this. Some moneys are supposed to be material in nature - and so are scarce, tokens of property. There are other moneys that measure, and are not scarce at all. Currencies that are based on scarcity are de facto competitive - pointed sticks at the core.

So the new crypto-currencies are most generally weaponized, and that's no country for old men like me. My interest is in the dmz of money.

From where they look, this is all they are going to see. But it's not all there is.

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 3:51 AM, Bob Haugen <[email protected]> wrote:

...

I'd like to see a real life somewhat-populated with real people example of how this is supposed to work and what this is supposed to enable.

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 4:01 AM, Michel Bauwens <

[email protected]>

...

wrote:

...

This article from Dick Bryan is the first one bringing it all together, giving clear criterial for p2p/commons oriented crypto developments, I had intuited some of them, but was not able to bring it all together yet as this author has:

https://medium.com/econaut/what-is-a-crypto-economy-155bdbc4ab1d

Some criteria to look for (via Dick Bryan):

1. "Programmable organizations enable production to be organized in a way that makes social criteria the rationale for production; not a constraint on it."

[1]

2. "The rise of ‘networks’ as modes of corporate organization breaks down the conventional means that differentiate one corporation from another and challenges the principle of ‘competition’ as the driver of corporate rationale. These are both issues that feature prominently in decentralized applications."

[2]

* 3. Mechanisms, like tokens, that allow surplus value to be retained by the workers, not capital.

" Changes in the nature of work (precarization, casualization, subcontracting, the rise of the gig economy) see workers carrying greater risks and break down the attachment of work and living standards to employment. There is growing interest in alternative ways of organizing work." [3]

4. "the real potential is cryptocurrencies as units of account: as modes of measuring economic activity that are conceived differently from those intrinsic to fiat money. Fiat money has become tied to conventional framings of profit and loss, income and expenditure, and a market-centred calculus. Non-fiat monies have the potential for developing new ways to calculate economic activity; ways that represent different social and economic values, and measure performance by criteria other than profit. Think about it for a moment. The unit of account potential signals the importance of the crypto economy developing ways (not a singular way, but coin-specific ways) of accounting and measuring the activities supported by each token. We see this as central to giving tokens a material basis in the crypto economy; not just leaving them as speculative stores of value. .... "Exchange is often between parties of unequal power, so mutual gain cannot be presumed. An important issue of the crypto economy is how blockchain can and cannot countermand asymmetrical power in trade. We see blockchain not facilitating frictionless markets but rather frictionless capital: distributed capital." [4]

-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

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-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens