thanks Chris, I really need you to write something on stewardship ... or point me to some good article on this by someone else? Michel On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 12:21 AM, Chris Cook <[email protected]>wrote:
Hi Michel
I hope your travels are productive.
You'll find this concept - Nondominium - relevant in respect of the Commons
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/MI24Dj01.html
You'll see, once again, my view that custody/stewardship is preferential to Trusts, which I reckon were probably invented BY lawyers FOR lawyers ;-)
Best Regards
Chris
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
Regarding non-dominium, I mentioned once before the early establishment of various network nations at least in the early history of the Mediterranean et al. The same dynamic appears to have existed in the Indian Ocean region at least through the European Dark/medieval Ages and probably earlier. The Phoceans and the Phoenicians were both merchant network nations who established both home ports usually on islands. This pattern has been covered over by the framing of the development of the immediate region and beyond as "Greater Greece." There has been a severe distortion of the history confusing the later concept of territorial sovereignty with the process as it seemed to occur. Both Phoceans and the Phoenicians seemed to have originated our the Black Sea area as goddess or god/goddess cultures, What became identified as the Greek alphabet, was more likely the product of the needs of their mercantile basis for communication and record keeping. The nominal Grecian/Persian wars was caused by the clashes between the Mycenaean Greek/palatial economy which operated in a gift/tribute economy and was based upon land ownership and slavery. This sort of gift economy was less than benign, and was essentially oligarchic/feudal. The response of that culture to the merchant networks cast the merchants as thieves diverting wealth from its accumulative patterns. The Persian empire of Cyrus and thereafter seems to have been more about controlling and protecting the Silk Road against bandits, for which the merchants were quite willing to pay taxes. The navies of Samos and Lesbos were extraordinarily large for small island city states except that they most likely operated as escorts to the merchant traffic and may well have been more directly offshoots of the merchant network nations. the attack by Persia upon the Mycenaean/Palatial Greeks was punitive and based upon the economics. The wide variety of allies involved in that punitive attack speak to its representation of a wide field of interests, see Herodotus's narrative. The Macedons were allies to the Persian Empire to such a degree that as the Persian Empire faded, Alexander and the Macedons were prepared to takeover and conduct that "empire" on a very similar basis. Describing Alexander as "Greek" seems to be another conflation by the Mycenaean Greeks, and their Eurocentric acolytes thereafter. The Persian Empire was the primary stimulus to the cultural ascendancy of the Greater "Greek" and Ionian "Greek" cultures. Merchants after all and particularly in these examples brought ideas as well as goods to the scattered populations. The Dhow cultures of the Indian Ocean represent another open seas/non-dominium sort of process. China's recent economic development seems to embrace this dynamic in part through recognition of the legacy of the mercantile history of the Han Dynasty. At this point PR China seems to be less about sovereign territory and projecting the threat of direct occupation, and more about setting up the infrastructure to facilitate global trade. The current domination of the commons by imperial militarism seems to repeat this conflict. The imperial cultures seem to have great difficulty operating outside of the bounds of threat and control. The creole-ization by language and by trade in this region has a long history. simplistic labeling tends to distort the details of history. I am not quite to the point of putting together a more formal article on all of this. The Hanseatic league is similar example in its origin, though it seemed to redefine itself as a military force in response to operating against territorial. The effect of the Papal declaration of terra nullius was little more than another piece of cultural narcissism. The virtual organization seems to be a more modern application of the same sort of dynamic. for now, Tadit On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 04:28:26 -0400, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
thanks Chris, I really need you to write something on stewardship ... or point me to some good article on this by someone else?
Michel
On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 12:21 AM, Chris Cook <[email protected]>wrote:
Hi Michel
I hope your travels are productive.
You'll find this concept - Nondominium - relevant in respect of the Commons
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/MI24Dj01.html
You'll see, once again, my view that custody/stewardship is preferential to Trusts, which I reckon were probably invented BY lawyers FOR lawyers ;-)
Best Regards
Chris
Very interesting Tadit, would you have any bibliography on these merchant network nations? see also http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/were-the-medieval-maghrebi-traders-p2p-pioneer... Michel On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 6:55 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
Regarding non-dominium, I mentioned once before the early establishment of various network nations at least in the early history of the Mediterranean et al. The same dynamic appears to have existed in the Indian Ocean region at least through the European Dark/medieval Ages and probably earlier. The Phoceans and the Phoenicians were both merchant network nations who established both home ports usually on islands. This pattern has been covered over by the framing of the development of the immediate region and beyond as "Greater Greece." There has been a severe distortion of the history confusing the later concept of territorial sovereignty with the process as it seemed to occur. Both Phoceans and the Phoenicians seemed to have originated our the Black Sea area as goddess or god/goddess cultures, What became identified as the Greek alphabet, was more likely the product of the needs of their mercantile basis for communication and record keeping.
The nominal Grecian/Persian wars was caused by the clashes between the Mycenaean Greek/palatial economy which operated in a gift/tribute economy and was based upon land ownership and slavery. This sort of gift economy was less than benign, and was essentially oligarchic/feudal. The response of that culture to the merchant networks cast the merchants as thieves diverting wealth from its accumulative patterns. The Persian empire of Cyrus and thereafter seems to have been more about controlling and protecting the Silk Road against bandits, for which the merchants were quite willing to pay taxes. The navies of Samos and Lesbos were extraordinarily large for small island city states except that they most likely operated as escorts to the merchant traffic and may well have been more directly offshoots of the merchant network nations. the attack by Persia upon the Mycenaean/Palatial Greeks was punitive and based upon the economics. The wide variety of allies involved in that punitive attack speak to its representation of a wide field of interests, see Herodotus's narrative. The Macedons were allies to the Persian Empire to such a degree that as the Persian Empire faded, Alexander and the Macedons were prepared to takeover and conduct that "empire" on a very similar basis. Describing Alexander as "Greek" seems to be another conflation by the Mycenaean Greeks, and their Eurocentric acolytes thereafter.
The Persian Empire was the primary stimulus to the cultural ascendancy of the Greater "Greek" and Ionian "Greek" cultures. Merchants after all and particularly in these examples brought ideas as well as goods to the scattered populations.
The Dhow cultures of the Indian Ocean represent another open seas/non-dominium sort of process. China's recent economic development seems to embrace this dynamic in part through recognition of the legacy of the mercantile history of the Han Dynasty. At this point PR China seems to be less about sovereign territory and projecting the threat of direct occupation, and more about setting up the infrastructure to facilitate global trade. The current domination of the commons by imperial militarism seems to repeat this conflict. The imperial cultures seem to have great difficulty operating outside of the bounds of threat and control. The creole-ization by language and by trade in this region has a long history.
simplistic labeling tends to distort the details of history. I am not quite to the point of putting together a more formal article on all of this. The Hanseatic league is similar example in its origin, though it seemed to redefine itself as a military force in response to operating against territorial. The effect of the Papal declaration of terra nullius was little more than another piece of cultural narcissism.
The virtual organization seems to be a more modern application of the same sort of dynamic.
for now, Tadit
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 04:28:26 -0400, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
thanks Chris, I really need you to write something on stewardship ... or point me to some good article on this by someone else?
Michel
On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 12:21 AM, Chris Cook <[email protected]>wrote:
Hi Michel
I hope your travels are productive.
You'll find this concept - Nondominium - relevant in respect of the Commons
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/MI24Dj01.html
You'll see, once again, my view that custody/stewardship is preferential to Trusts, which I reckon were probably invented BY lawyers FOR lawyers ;-)
Best Regards
Chris
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
Michel, a lot of it is stray bits of information. Herodotus's Histories narrative of the Greek Persian war is an important part. Stray bits like Miletus of Asia Minor was apparently the transplanting of a city, also named Miletus, which was on the island of Crete, after the Theran Volcanic explosion that was essentially relocated to Asia Minor area. Why? the answer is the terminus of the Silk Road. Why the extraordinary fleets at Samos, Lesbos, and Miletus? The same answer. The democratization of economics in the invention of token based currencies, over the oligarchic gift economy is also a downstream consequence. The recent publication of The Dhow Cultures of the Indian Ocean by Abdul Sheriff provides another link to the early (BCE) development of trade routes by the Persian empire, by the Egyptians to the Red Sea, Herodotus's narrative of Phoenician trading routes from Gibraltar the around the majority of Africa and back up to the Red Sea... Part of it is in a book by Peter Kingsley entitled "Reality" which traces the cosmology and metaphysics of the Phoceans to Parmenides, Heraclitus, Zeno, Empedocles, and onto Solon and others, which maps well onto the various ports of trade and manufacturing. Some it is just common sense to the extent that ideas, philosophies, spiritualities, and more were also shared. Here Thomas McEvilley's "The Shape of Ancient Thought" also contributes in the close parallels between Parmenides et al lineage of "Greater Greece" to the Rig Veda and the Upanishads shows up to demonstrate the close connections between the nominal East and West Another source is Henrik Spruyt's The Sovereign State and its Competitors (1994) which covers the Hanseatic League fairly well. A related line of research has been trying to establish the cultural origin of the Tarot/QBL, and no, I do not believe that the Hebrews were the originators of the QBL. More likely they represent a substantial contribution to the conservation of the core ideas. The QBL projected as a cube of space is more likely the product of sea faring culture or a culture which had a highly developed astronomical science. The use of icons as applied by the major trumps is characteristic of a pre-phonetic alphabet context, ie hieroglyphs or cuneiform script. The connections between between Mesopotamia and Egypt was not accomplished by carrier pigeons, but more likely by trade and the traveling of scholars, healers, scribes, and rhapsodes (professional reciters of epic poetry.) No, I do not yet have a specific bibliography. Until this point, me imposing upon the patience of my friends and acquaintances, has been my primary outlet. Archeo-economics doesn't have much of a natural audience in these times. Tadit On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 08:37:50 -0400, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
Very interesting Tadit,
would you have any bibliography on these merchant network nations?
see also http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/were-the-medieval-maghrebi-traders-p2p-pioneer...
Michel
On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 6:55 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
Regarding non-dominium, I mentioned once before the early establishment of various network nations at least in the early history of the Mediterranean et al. The same dynamic appears to have existed in the Indian Ocean region at least through the European Dark/medieval Ages and probably earlier. The Phoceans and the Phoenicians were both merchant network nations who established both home ports usually on islands. This pattern has been covered over by the framing of the development of the immediate region and beyond as "Greater Greece." There has been a severe distortion of the history confusing the later concept of territorial sovereignty with the process as it seemed to occur. Both Phoceans and the Phoenicians seemed to have originated our the Black Sea area as goddess or god/goddess cultures, What became identified as the Greek alphabet, was more likely the product of the needs of their mercantile basis for communication and record keeping.
The nominal Grecian/Persian wars was caused by the clashes between the Mycenaean Greek/palatial economy which operated in a gift/tribute economy and was based upon land ownership and slavery. This sort of gift economy was less than benign, and was essentially oligarchic/feudal. The response of that culture to the merchant networks cast the merchants as thieves diverting wealth from its accumulative patterns. The Persian empire of Cyrus and thereafter seems to have been more about controlling and protecting the Silk Road against bandits, for which the merchants were quite willing to pay taxes. The navies of Samos and Lesbos were extraordinarily large for small island city states except that they most likely operated as escorts to the merchant traffic and may well have been more directly offshoots of the merchant network nations. the attack by Persia upon the Mycenaean/Palatial Greeks was punitive and based upon the economics. The wide variety of allies involved in that punitive attack speak to its representation of a wide field of interests, see Herodotus's narrative. The Macedons were allies to the Persian Empire to such a degree that as the Persian Empire faded, Alexander and the Macedons were prepared to takeover and conduct that "empire" on a very similar basis. Describing Alexander as "Greek" seems to be another conflation by the Mycenaean Greeks, and their Eurocentric acolytes thereafter.
The Persian Empire was the primary stimulus to the cultural ascendancy of the Greater "Greek" and Ionian "Greek" cultures. Merchants after all and particularly in these examples brought ideas as well as goods to the scattered populations.
The Dhow cultures of the Indian Ocean represent another open seas/non-dominium sort of process. China's recent economic development seems to embrace this dynamic in part through recognition of the legacy of the mercantile history of the Han Dynasty. At this point PR China seems to be less about sovereign territory and projecting the threat of direct occupation, and more about setting up the infrastructure to facilitate global trade. The current domination of the commons by imperial militarism seems to repeat this conflict. The imperial cultures seem to have great difficulty operating outside of the bounds of threat and control. The creole-ization by language and by trade in this region has a long history.
simplistic labeling tends to distort the details of history. I am not quite to the point of putting together a more formal article on all of this. The Hanseatic league is similar example in its origin, though it seemed to redefine itself as a military force in response to operating against territorial. The effect of the Papal declaration of terra nullius was little more than another piece of cultural narcissism.
The virtual organization seems to be a more modern application of the same sort of dynamic.
for now, Tadit
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 04:28:26 -0400, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
thanks Chris, I really need you to write something on stewardship ... or point me to some good article on this by someone else?
Michel
On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 12:21 AM, Chris Cook <[email protected]>wrote:
Hi Michel
I hope your travels are productive.
You'll find this concept - Nondominium - relevant in respect of the Commons
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/MI24Dj01.html
You'll see, once again, my view that custody/stewardship is preferential to Trusts, which I reckon were probably invented BY lawyers FOR lawyers ;-)
Best Regards
Chris
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
very useful for further digging!! On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 9:25 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
Michel, a lot of it is stray bits of information. Herodotus's Histories narrative of the Greek Persian war is an important part. Stray bits like Miletus of Asia Minor was apparently the transplanting of a city, also named Miletus, which was on the island of Crete, after the Theran Volcanic explosion that was essentially relocated to Asia Minor area. Why? the answer is the terminus of the Silk Road. Why the extraordinary fleets at Samos, Lesbos, and Miletus? The same answer. The democratization of economics in the invention of token based currencies, over the oligarchic gift economy is also a downstream consequence.
The recent publication of The Dhow Cultures of the Indian Ocean by Abdul Sheriff provides another link to the early (BCE) development of trade routes by the Persian empire, by the Egyptians to the Red Sea, Herodotus's narrative of Phoenician trading routes from Gibraltar the around the majority of Africa and back up to the Red Sea...
Part of it is in a book by Peter Kingsley entitled "Reality" which traces the cosmology and metaphysics of the Phoceans to Parmenides, Heraclitus, Zeno, Empedocles, and onto Solon and others, which maps well onto the various ports of trade and manufacturing. Some it is just common sense to the extent that ideas, philosophies, spiritualities, and more were also shared. Here Thomas McEvilley's "The Shape of Ancient Thought" also contributes in the close parallels between Parmenides et al lineage of "Greater Greece" to the Rig Veda and the Upanishads shows up to demonstrate the close connections between the nominal East and West
Another source is Henrik Spruyt's The Sovereign State and its Competitors (1994) which covers the Hanseatic League fairly well.
A related line of research has been trying to establish the cultural origin of the Tarot/QBL, and no, I do not believe that the Hebrews were the originators of the QBL. More likely they represent a substantial contribution to the conservation of the core ideas. The QBL projected as a cube of space is more likely the product of sea faring culture or a culture which had a highly developed astronomical science. The use of icons as applied by the major trumps is characteristic of a pre-phonetic alphabet context, ie hieroglyphs or cuneiform script. The connections between between Mesopotamia and Egypt was not accomplished by carrier pigeons, but more likely by trade and the traveling of scholars, healers, scribes, and rhapsodes (professional reciters of epic poetry.)
No, I do not yet have a specific bibliography. Until this point, me imposing upon the patience of my friends and acquaintances, has been my primary outlet. Archeo-economics doesn't have much of a natural audience in these times.
Tadit
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 08:37:50 -0400, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
Very interesting Tadit,
would you have any bibliography on these merchant network nations?
see also
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/were-the-medieval-maghrebi-traders-p2p-pioneer...
Michel
On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 6:55 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
Regarding non-dominium, I mentioned once before the early establishment of various network nations at least in the early history of the Mediterranean et al. The same dynamic appears to have existed in the Indian Ocean region at least through the European Dark/medieval Ages and probably earlier. The Phoceans and the Phoenicians were both merchant network nations who established both home ports usually on islands. This pattern has been covered over by the framing of the development of the immediate region and beyond as "Greater Greece." There has been a severe distortion of the history confusing the later concept of territorial sovereignty with the process as it seemed to occur. Both Phoceans and the Phoenicians seemed to have originated our the Black Sea area as goddess or god/goddess cultures, What became identified as the Greek alphabet, was more likely the product of the needs of their mercantile basis for communication and record keeping.
The nominal Grecian/Persian wars was caused by the clashes between the Mycenaean Greek/palatial economy which operated in a gift/tribute economy and was based upon land ownership and slavery. This sort of gift economy was less than benign, and was essentially oligarchic/feudal. The response of that culture to the merchant networks cast the merchants as thieves diverting wealth from its accumulative patterns. The Persian empire of Cyrus and thereafter seems to have been more about controlling and protecting the Silk Road against bandits, for which the merchants were quite willing to pay taxes. The navies of Samos and Lesbos were extraordinarily large for small island city states except that they most likely operated as escorts to the merchant traffic and may well have been more directly offshoots of the merchant network nations. the attack by Persia upon the Mycenaean/Palatial Greeks was punitive and based upon the economics. The wide variety of allies involved in that punitive attack speak to its representation of a wide field of interests, see Herodotus's narrative. The Macedons were allies to the Persian Empire to such a degree that as the Persian Empire faded, Alexander and the Macedons were prepared to takeover and conduct that "empire" on a very similar basis. Describing Alexander as "Greek" seems to be another conflation by the Mycenaean Greeks, and their Eurocentric acolytes thereafter.
The Persian Empire was the primary stimulus to the cultural ascendancy of the Greater "Greek" and Ionian "Greek" cultures. Merchants after all and particularly in these examples brought ideas as well as goods to the scattered populations.
The Dhow cultures of the Indian Ocean represent another open seas/non-dominium sort of process. China's recent economic development seems to embrace this dynamic in part through recognition of the legacy of the mercantile history of the Han Dynasty. At this point PR China seems to be less about sovereign territory and projecting the threat of direct occupation, and more about setting up the infrastructure to facilitate global trade. The current domination of the commons by imperial militarism seems to repeat this conflict. The imperial cultures seem to have great difficulty operating outside of the bounds of threat and control. The creole-ization by language and by trade in this region has a long history.
simplistic labeling tends to distort the details of history. I am not quite to the point of putting together a more formal article on all of this. The Hanseatic league is similar example in its origin, though it seemed to redefine itself as a military force in response to operating against territorial. The effect of the Papal declaration of terra nullius was little more than another piece of cultural narcissism.
The virtual organization seems to be a more modern application of the same sort of dynamic.
for now, Tadit
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 04:28:26 -0400, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
thanks Chris, I really need you to write something on stewardship ... or point me to some good article on this by someone else?
Michel
On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 12:21 AM, Chris Cook <[email protected]>wrote:
Hi Michel
I hope your travels are productive.
You'll find this concept - Nondominium - relevant in respect of the Commons
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/MI24Dj01.html
You'll see, once again, my view that custody/stewardship is preferential to Trusts, which I reckon were probably invented BY lawyers FOR lawyers ;-)
Best Regards
Chris
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
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