views very welcome, Michel ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Facebook <[email protected]> Date: Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 10:49 PM Subject: Henry Edward Hardy commented on your link. To: Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> facebook<http://www.facebook.com/n/?mbauwens%2Fposts%2F201125386584394&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge&bcode=iNpgbV7N&n_m=michelsub2004%40gmail.com> Hi Michel, Henry Edward Hardy commented on your link. Henry wrote: "The article, "The Political Economy of Peer Production," by Michael Bauwens, advocates a supposedly new form of economic organization based on peer-to-peer networking. This social-network, flat, non-hierarchical system of production is anticipated in the political and economic philosophy of syndicalism, dating pack to 1895. Syndicalism is a system of organization of the means of production which seeks to replace free enterprise capitalism (US) and state capitalism (China) with co-operative, voluntary federations of democratically-organized and administered trade unions. Mutual aid, self-organization, and self-administration are among the means and goals of syndicalism. In other words, the first three "requirements"in this article, technological infrastructure that operates on peer-to-peer processes, alternative information and communication systems, software infrastructure, to the degree that they are requirements at all, in no way require computers or computer networks! The article attempts to graft the author's (perhaps un-self-aware) syndicalist political views onto the development process of the Internet and Free Software projects. In fact, the most successful of these, such as the Internet under Jon Postel, the Free Software Foundation under Richard Stallman, One Laptop per Child under Nicholas Negroponte, and Linux kernel maintenance under Linus Torvalds and Andrew Morton, have been what might more accurately described as "benign dictatorships" than syndicalist or peer-to-peer in nature. "An injury to one is an injury to all." http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndicalism http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Postel http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Negroponte http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.11/linus.html" See the comment thread<http://www.facebook.com/n/?mbauwens%2Fposts%2F201125386584394&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge&bcode=iNpgbV7N&n_m=michelsub2004%40gmail.com> Reply to this email to comment on this link. Thanks, The Facebook Team See Comment<http://www.facebook.com/n/?mbauwens%2Fposts%2F201125386584394&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge&bcode=iNpgbV7N&n_m=michelsub2004%40gmail.com>The message was sent to [email protected]. If you don't want to receive these emails from Facebook in the future or have your email address used for friend suggestions, you can unsubscribe<http://www.facebook.com/o.php?k=c05bf5&u=528245547&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge>. Facebook, Inc. P.O. Box 10005, Palo Alto, CA 94303 -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
Michel, I would offer a little counter-argument to Mr. Hardy's comment. Mainly that while syndicalism does indeed advocate a style of governance very much like that as hoped for in the P2pFoundation (as well as myself), the scale and diversity at which the Internet *enables* is something that is far beyond what could ever be managed or orchestrated by non-networked means (at least in the near term within scientific materialism). The desire for trade and diversity would otherwise make primitive syndicalism fail. Indeed both communism and capitalism arose from these failures. Cheers, Marcos pangaia.sf.net On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 6:12 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>wrote:
views very welcome,
Michel
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Facebook <[email protected]> Date: Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 10:49 PM Subject: Henry Edward Hardy commented on your link. To: Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
facebook<http://www.facebook.com/n/?mbauwens%2Fposts%2F201125386584394&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge&bcode=iNpgbV7N&n_m=michelsub2004%40gmail.com> Hi Michel, Henry Edward Hardy commented on your link. Henry wrote: "The article, "The Political Economy of Peer Production," by Michael Bauwens, advocates a supposedly new form of economic organization based on peer-to-peer networking. This social-network, flat, non-hierarchical system of production is anticipated in the political and economic philosophy of syndicalism, dating pack to 1895. Syndicalism is a system of organization of the means of production which seeks to replace free enterprise capitalism (US) and state capitalism (China) with co-operative, voluntary federations of democratically-organized and administered trade unions. Mutual aid, self-organization, and self-administration are among the means and goals of syndicalism. In other words, the first three "requirements"in this article, technological infrastructure that operates on peer-to-peer processes, alternative information and communication systems, software infrastructure, to the degree that they are requirements at all, in no way require computers or computer networks! The article attempts to graft the author's (perhaps un-self-aware) syndicalist political views onto the development process of the Internet and Free Software projects. In fact, the most successful of these, such as the Internet under Jon Postel, the Free Software Foundation under Richard Stallman, One Laptop per Child under Nicholas Negroponte, and Linux kernel maintenance under Linus Torvalds and Andrew Morton, have been what might more accurately described as "benign dictatorships" than syndicalist or peer-to-peer in nature. "An injury to one is an injury to all." http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndicalism http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Postel http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Negroponte http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.11/linus.html"
See the comment thread<http://www.facebook.com/n/?mbauwens%2Fposts%2F201125386584394&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge&bcode=iNpgbV7N&n_m=michelsub2004%40gmail.com> Reply to this email to comment on this link. Thanks, The Facebook Team See Comment<http://www.facebook.com/n/?mbauwens%2Fposts%2F201125386584394&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge&bcode=iNpgbV7N&n_m=michelsub2004%40gmail.com> The message was sent to [email protected]. If you don't want to receive these emails from Facebook in the future or have your email address used for friend suggestions, you can unsubscribe<http://www.facebook.com/o.php?k=c05bf5&u=528245547&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge>.
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hi mark, I was initally tempted to reply to this, but a later comment about my essay being total crap, shows it's not the kind of person with whom a dialogue would be fruitful, Michel On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 10:31 AM, Mark Janssen <[email protected]>wrote:
Michel, I would offer a little counter-argument to Mr. Hardy's comment. Mainly that while syndicalism does indeed advocate a style of governance very much like that as hoped for in the P2pFoundation (as well as myself), the scale and diversity at which the Internet *enables* is something that is far beyond what could ever be managed or orchestrated by non-networked means (at least in the near term within scientific materialism). The desire for trade and diversity would otherwise make primitive syndicalism fail. Indeed both communism and capitalism arose from these failures.
Cheers,
Marcos pangaia.sf.net
On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 6:12 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>wrote:
views very welcome,
Michel
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Facebook <[email protected]> Date: Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 10:49 PM Subject: Henry Edward Hardy commented on your link. To: Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
facebook<http://www.facebook.com/n/?mbauwens%2Fposts%2F201125386584394&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge&bcode=iNpgbV7N&n_m=michelsub2004%40gmail.com> Hi Michel, Henry Edward Hardy commented on your link. Henry wrote: "The article, "The Political Economy of Peer Production," by Michael Bauwens, advocates a supposedly new form of economic organization based on peer-to-peer networking. This social-network, flat, non-hierarchical system of production is anticipated in the political and economic philosophy of syndicalism, dating pack to 1895. Syndicalism is a system of organization of the means of production which seeks to replace free enterprise capitalism (US) and state capitalism (China) with co-operative, voluntary federations of democratically-organized and administered trade unions. Mutual aid, self-organization, and self-administration are among the means and goals of syndicalism. In other words, the first three "requirements"in this article, technological infrastructure that operates on peer-to-peer processes, alternative information and communication systems, software infrastructure, to the degree that they are requirements at all, in no way require computers or computer networks! The article attempts to graft the author's (perhaps un-self-aware) syndicalist political views onto the development process of the Internet and Free Software projects. In fact, the most successful of these, such as the Internet under Jon Postel, the Free Software Foundation under Richard Stallman, One Laptop per Child under Nicholas Negroponte, and Linux kernel maintenance under Linus Torvalds and Andrew Morton, have been what might more accurately described as "benign dictatorships" than syndicalist or peer-to-peer in nature. "An injury to one is an injury to all." http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndicalism http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Postel http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Negroponte http://www.facebook.com/l/32423/www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.11/linus.html"
See the comment thread<http://www.facebook.com/n/?mbauwens%2Fposts%2F201125386584394&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge&bcode=iNpgbV7N&n_m=michelsub2004%40gmail.com> Reply to this email to comment on this link. Thanks, The Facebook Team See Comment<http://www.facebook.com/n/?mbauwens%2Fposts%2F201125386584394&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge&bcode=iNpgbV7N&n_m=michelsub2004%40gmail.com> The message was sent to [email protected]. If you don't want to receive these emails from Facebook in the future or have your email address used for friend suggestions, you can unsubscribe<http://www.facebook.com/o.php?k=c05bf5&u=528245547&mid=40bce9bG1f7c632bGe441548Ge>.
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On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 12:38 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
I was initally tempted to reply to this, but a later comment about my essay being total crap, shows it's not the kind of person with whom a dialogue would be fruitful,
In any case there are qualitative differences from the industrial system to which classical syndicalism was supposed to be applied. Syndicalism was based on majority governance of each node, in an environment where individual nodes were expensive and required more than one person to work them, so that it was necessary for the will of a majority to bind a minority. In other words, participation, secession and forking weren't scalable. As a result, coordination had to be social rather than stigmergic. Under classical syndicalism, the New York Times and CBS News, or BMG Records, would be governed by workers' syndicates, because their enormous capital expense would mandate collective ownership and democratic governance. A system in which the "printing press" is universally affordable by individuals is fundamentally different. -- Kevin Carson Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org Mutualist Blog: Free Market Anti-Capitalism http://mutualist.blogspot.com The Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Organization Theory: A Libertarian Perspective http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
participants (3)
-
Kevin Carson -
Mark Janssen -
Michel Bauwens