I think Bitcoin is really awesome. I just hope to be able to create a way to issue and use new currencies with it in addition to using the existing one in the same application. On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 2:29 AM, magius <[email protected]> wrote:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/01/bitcoin-step-toward-censorship-resista...
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-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
imho is more interesting this one, although less developped http://opencoin.org/ 2011/1/22 Samuel Rose <[email protected]>:
I think Bitcoin is really awesome. I just hope to be able to create a way to issue and use new currencies with it in addition to using the existing one in the same application.
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 2:29 AM, magius <[email protected]> wrote:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/01/bitcoin-step-toward-censorship-resista...
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"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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would be nice to have an overview of differences between bitcoin, ripple, and opencoin, Michel On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 2:26 AM, magius <[email protected]> wrote:
imho is more interesting this one, although less developped
2011/1/22 Samuel Rose <[email protected]>:
I think Bitcoin is really awesome. I just hope to be able to create a way to issue and use new currencies with it in addition to using the existing one in the same application.
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 2:29 AM, magius <[email protected]> wrote:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/01/bitcoin-step-toward-censorship-resista...
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-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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Indeed. I'm looking for a comprehensive analysis of these systems as well. Should Superfluid be on this list, as well, or does the community focus of that system put it in a less scalable category? On Jan 22, 2011, at 10:54 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
would be nice to have an overview of differences between bitcoin, ripple, and opencoin,
Michel
On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 2:26 AM, magius <[email protected]> wrote: imho is more interesting this one, although less developped
2011/1/22 Samuel Rose <[email protected]>:
I think Bitcoin is really awesome. I just hope to be able to create a way to issue and use new currencies with it in addition to using the existing one in the same application.
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 2:29 AM, magius <[email protected]> wrote:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/01/bitcoin-step-toward-censorship-resista...
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-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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I wasn't aware of superfluid myself, I 'll look it up, Michel On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]>wrote:
Indeed. I'm looking for a comprehensive analysis of these systems as well.
Should Superfluid be on this list, as well, or does the community focus of that system put it in a less scalable category?
On Jan 22, 2011, at 10:54 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
would be nice to have an overview of differences between bitcoin, ripple, and opencoin,
Michel
On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 2:26 AM, magius <[email protected]> wrote:
imho is more interesting this one, although less developped
2011/1/22 Samuel Rose <[email protected]>:
I think Bitcoin is really awesome. I just hope to be able to create a way to issue and use new currencies with it in addition to using the existing one in the same application.
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 2:29 AM, magius <[email protected]> wrote:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/01/bitcoin-step-toward-censorship-resista...
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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Bitcoin and Opencoin are "sons" of David Chaum's Digicash both. Chaum is one of the most important cryptographers and freedom fighters in the world and invented in the eighties the first digital cash, that was refused, attacked and destroyed by credit card companies societies, that instead wanted to propagate a model not based on anonimity. The big difference between them is that Bitcoin is a complete currency system instead Opencoin is the system to make a currency (a digital mint). Bitcoin you need to use as-it-is, with Opencoin instead you can create your own currency system.
Fascinating. Sounds like he got the same attack that Paypal did in the early days, when the banks went after the company for earning its profit on the "float." The thing that could bring Bitcoin to its knees in the US is the tax law. Ultimately, the network operator would be responsible for tax reporting when people are making exchanges of value and not using cash. I found all this out while working with the Superfluid guys. If I administrate trades for you like ebay does, in US currency, I'm not obligated to produce 1099's. If I don't do the value exchange in dollars, I must report the dollar equivalency to the IRS. This law has yet to be enforced, but it surely would be if any of these currencies scaled up. On Jan 23, 2011, at 11:59 AM, magius wrote:
Bitcoin and Opencoin are "sons" of David Chaum's Digicash both. Chaum is one of the most important cryptographers and freedom fighters in the world and invented in the eighties the first digital cash, that was refused, attacked and destroyed by credit card companies societies, that instead wanted to propagate a model not based on anonimity. The big difference between them is that Bitcoin is a complete currency system instead Opencoin is the system to make a currency (a digital mint). Bitcoin you need to use as-it-is, with Opencoin instead you can create your own currency system.
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european LETS faced the same tax issues in the 80's-90's but they all seemed to have solved them ... but they do pay some kind of taxes, do we have an expert on these aspects here? On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]>wrote:
Fascinating. Sounds like he got the same attack that Paypal did in the early days, when the banks went after the company for earning its profit on the "float."
The thing that could bring Bitcoin to its knees in the US is the tax law. Ultimately, the network operator would be responsible for tax reporting when people are making exchanges of value and not using cash. I found all this out while working with the Superfluid guys. If I administrate trades for you like ebay does, in US currency, I'm not obligated to produce 1099's. If I don't do the value exchange in dollars, I must report the dollar equivalency to the IRS.
This law has yet to be enforced, but it surely would be if any of these currencies scaled up.
On Jan 23, 2011, at 11:59 AM, magius wrote:
Bitcoin and Opencoin are "sons" of David Chaum's Digicash both. Chaum is one of the most important cryptographers and freedom fighters in the world and invented in the eighties the first digital cash, that was refused, attacked and destroyed by credit card companies societies, that instead wanted to propagate a model not based on anonimity. The big difference between them is that Bitcoin is a complete currency system instead Opencoin is the system to make a currency (a digital mint). Bitcoin you need to use as-it-is, with Opencoin instead you can create your own currency system.
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
I understand the US aspects pretty well. The people making the transaction need a dollar equivalent to be able to report to the IRS. Superfluid created a process through which people could negotiate that value after the transaction (the seller wants it smaller, the buyer wants it bigger). Currencies that have dollar equivalencies (Berkshares, etc.) don't have to bother with this. On Jan 23, 2011, at 10:11 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
european LETS faced the same tax issues in the 80's-90's but they all seemed to have solved them ... but they do pay some kind of taxes,
do we have an expert on these aspects here?
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]> wrote: Fascinating. Sounds like he got the same attack that Paypal did in the early days, when the banks went after the company for earning its profit on the "float."
The thing that could bring Bitcoin to its knees in the US is the tax law. Ultimately, the network operator would be responsible for tax reporting when people are making exchanges of value and not using cash. I found all this out while working with the Superfluid guys. If I administrate trades for you like ebay does, in US currency, I'm not obligated to produce 1099's. If I don't do the value exchange in dollars, I must report the dollar equivalency to the IRS.
This law has yet to be enforced, but it surely would be if any of these currencies scaled up.
On Jan 23, 2011, at 11:59 AM, magius wrote:
Bitcoin and Opencoin are "sons" of David Chaum's Digicash both. Chaum is one of the most important cryptographers and freedom fighters in the world and invented in the eighties the first digital cash, that was refused, attacked and destroyed by credit card companies societies, that instead wanted to propagate a model not based on anonimity. The big difference between them is that Bitcoin is a complete currency system instead Opencoin is the system to make a currency (a digital mint). Bitcoin you need to use as-it-is, with Opencoin instead you can create your own currency system.
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On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]> wrote:
I understand the US aspects pretty well. The people making the transaction need a dollar equivalent to be able to report to the IRS. Superfluid created a process through which people could negotiate that value after the transaction (the seller wants it smaller, the buyer wants it bigger). Currencies that have dollar equivalencies (Berkshares, etc.) don't have to bother with this.
Superfluid sounds like a really great way for people to jump in headfirst with support from Superfluid for the accounting they'd need to do. It turns out that bitcoin does have dollar equivalencies. For instance, you can buy bit coins with US dollars here: https://www.bitcoinmarket.com/ and here https://mtgox.com/ or withdraw to a credit card here: https://www.bitcoin2cc.com/ ***CAVEAT: I've never used any of the above services, so this is not a recommendation for them, just services I've found. *** As a programmer, it seems to me that it would be possible to form the bitcoin codebase and change it in a way that would allow for using more than one currency in the bitcoin system. -- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
It is and would be. The issue there is that they're very tightly focused on the developers' community. They want to help small groups collaborate on projects, and are not strong believers in the ability of a currency to be used for goods and services in a p2p fashion across all sectors. On Jan 24, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]
wrote: I understand the US aspects pretty well. The people making the transaction need a dollar equivalent to be able to report to the IRS. Superfluid created a process through which people could negotiate that value after the transaction (the seller wants it smaller, the buyer wants it bigger). Currencies that have dollar equivalencies (Berkshares, etc.) don't have to bother with this.
Superfluid sounds like a really great way for people to jump in headfirst with support from Superfluid for the accounting they'd need to do.
It turns out that bitcoin does have dollar equivalencies. For instance, you can buy bit coins with US dollars here: https://www.bitcoinmarket.com/ and here https://mtgox.com/
or withdraw to a credit card here: https://www.bitcoin2cc.com/
***CAVEAT: I've never used any of the above services, so this is not a recommendation for them, just services I've found. ***
As a programmer, it seems to me that it would be possible to form the bitcoin codebase and change it in a way that would allow for using more than one currency in the bitcoin system.
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 9:59 AM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]> wrote:
It is and would be.
The issue there is that they're very tightly focused on the developers' community. They want to help small groups collaborate on projects, and are not strong believers in the ability of a currency to be used for goods and services in a p2p fashion across all sectors.
You're talking about Bitcoin there, right? (just wanted to make sure whether you were talking about bitcoin or superfluid there)
On Jan 24, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]
wrote: I understand the US aspects pretty well. The people making the transaction need a dollar equivalent to be able to report to the IRS. Superfluid created a process through which people could negotiate that value after the transaction (the seller wants it smaller, the buyer wants it bigger). Currencies that have dollar equivalencies (Berkshares, etc.) don't have to bother with this.
Superfluid sounds like a really great way for people to jump in headfirst with support from Superfluid for the accounting they'd need to do.
It turns out that bitcoin does have dollar equivalencies. For instance, you can buy bit coins with US dollars here: https://www.bitcoinmarket.com/ and here https://mtgox.com/
or withdraw to a credit card here: https://www.bitcoin2cc.com/
***CAVEAT: I've never used any of the above services, so this is not a recommendation for them, just services I've found. ***
As a programmer, it seems to me that it would be possible to form the bitcoin codebase and change it in a way that would allow for using more than one currency in the bitcoin system.
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
I was talking about Superfluid. It's primarily a tool for collaboration - a social network where people offer their services in order to get one another's projects done. And it's aimed at software/web developers. I think the model could easily be applied to everyone and everything. But they are focused on biasing the currency towards getting people to develop things together, so they will be manipulating the money supply consciously. They're thinking of it more like Gold in WoW than Bitcoin/ cash-equivalent. On Jan 24, 2011, at 10:11 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 9:59 AM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]
wrote: It is and would be.
The issue there is that they're very tightly focused on the developers' community. They want to help small groups collaborate on projects, and are not strong believers in the ability of a currency to be used for goods and services in a p2p fashion across all sectors.
You're talking about Bitcoin there, right? (just wanted to make sure whether you were talking about bitcoin or superfluid there)
On Jan 24, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]
wrote: I understand the US aspects pretty well. The people making the transaction need a dollar equivalent to be able to report to the IRS. Superfluid created a process through which people could negotiate that value after the transaction (the seller wants it smaller, the buyer wants it bigger). Currencies that have dollar equivalencies (Berkshares, etc.) don't have to bother with this.
Superfluid sounds like a really great way for people to jump in headfirst with support from Superfluid for the accounting they'd need to do.
It turns out that bitcoin does have dollar equivalencies. For instance, you can buy bit coins with US dollars here: https://www.bitcoinmarket.com/ and here https://mtgox.com/
or withdraw to a credit card here: https://www.bitcoin2cc.com/
***CAVEAT: I've never used any of the above services, so this is not a recommendation for them, just services I've found. ***
As a programmer, it seems to me that it would be possible to form the bitcoin codebase and change it in a way that would allow for using more than one currency in the bitcoin system.
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]> wrote:
I was talking about Superfluid. It's primarily a tool for collaboration - a social network where people offer their services in order to get one another's projects done. And it's aimed at software/web developers.
I think the model could easily be applied to everyone and everything. But they are focused on biasing the currency towards getting people to develop things together, so they will be manipulating the money supply consciously. They're thinking of it more like Gold in WoW than Bitcoin/ cash-equivalent.
An aside: I wonder how Superfluid could work with hardware developers? http://www.oshwbank.org/ was successful at least for a while (but was pledging actual Euros). A lot of projects funded there ended up as physical products on http://www.liquidware.com/ Superfluid: I think the model could extend to Food, Energy, physical production systems. If they don't have it already, Superfluid could benefit from an API that allows people to create extensions on their services, and to use them in other commercial services *and* in open source software spaces (mediawiki, wagn, Drupal, Wordpress, Redmine, statusnet, diaspora, etc) Just some ideas, anyway
On Jan 24, 2011, at 10:11 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 9:59 AM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]
wrote: It is and would be.
The issue there is that they're very tightly focused on the developers' community. They want to help small groups collaborate on projects, and are not strong believers in the ability of a currency to be used for goods and services in a p2p fashion across all sectors.
You're talking about Bitcoin there, right? (just wanted to make sure whether you were talking about bitcoin or superfluid there)
On Jan 24, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]
wrote: I understand the US aspects pretty well. The people making the transaction need a dollar equivalent to be able to report to the IRS. Superfluid created a process through which people could negotiate that value after the transaction (the seller wants it smaller, the buyer wants it bigger). Currencies that have dollar equivalencies (Berkshares, etc.) don't have to bother with this.
Superfluid sounds like a really great way for people to jump in headfirst with support from Superfluid for the accounting they'd need to do.
It turns out that bitcoin does have dollar equivalencies. For instance, you can buy bit coins with US dollars here: https://www.bitcoinmarket.com/ and here https://mtgox.com/
or withdraw to a credit card here: https://www.bitcoin2cc.com/
***CAVEAT: I've never used any of the above services, so this is not a recommendation for them, just services I've found. ***
As a programmer, it seems to me that it would be possible to form the bitcoin codebase and change it in a way that would allow for using more than one currency in the bitcoin system.
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://forwardfound.org http://futureforwardinstitute.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
Meanwhile, Venessa Meimis just forwarded this: www.unifiedfieldbank.com On Jan 23, 2011, at 10:11 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
european LETS faced the same tax issues in the 80's-90's but they all seemed to have solved them ... but they do pay some kind of taxes,
do we have an expert on these aspects here?
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]> wrote: Fascinating. Sounds like he got the same attack that Paypal did in the early days, when the banks went after the company for earning its profit on the "float."
The thing that could bring Bitcoin to its knees in the US is the tax law. Ultimately, the network operator would be responsible for tax reporting when people are making exchanges of value and not using cash. I found all this out while working with the Superfluid guys. If I administrate trades for you like ebay does, in US currency, I'm not obligated to produce 1099's. If I don't do the value exchange in dollars, I must report the dollar equivalency to the IRS.
This law has yet to be enforced, but it surely would be if any of these currencies scaled up.
On Jan 23, 2011, at 11:59 AM, magius wrote:
Bitcoin and Opencoin are "sons" of David Chaum's Digicash both. Chaum is one of the most important cryptographers and freedom fighters in the world and invented in the eighties the first digital cash, that was refused, attacked and destroyed by credit card companies societies, that instead wanted to propagate a model not based on anonimity. The big difference between them is that Bitcoin is a complete currency system instead Opencoin is the system to make a currency (a digital mint). Bitcoin you need to use as-it-is, with Opencoin instead you can create your own currency system.
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very simply: as long as the exchange is equivalent to a neighborhood service you do not pay tax, as soon as you get into professional dimensions you do Margrit Kennedy Prof. Dr. Margrit Kennedy MonNetA, Ginsterweg 3 31595 Steyerberg, Germany Tel. +49 5764 942403 [email protected] www.margritkennedy.de www.monneta.org Am 24.01.2011 um 14:16 schrieb Douglas Rushkoff:
Meanwhile, Venessa Meimis just forwarded this:
www.unifiedfieldbank.com
On Jan 23, 2011, at 10:11 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
european LETS faced the same tax issues in the 80's-90's but they all seemed to have solved them ... but they do pay some kind of taxes,
do we have an expert on these aspects here?
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]
wrote: Fascinating. Sounds like he got the same attack that Paypal did in the early days, when the banks went after the company for earning its profit on the "float."
The thing that could bring Bitcoin to its knees in the US is the tax law. Ultimately, the network operator would be responsible for tax reporting when people are making exchanges of value and not using cash. I found all this out while working with the Superfluid guys. If I administrate trades for you like ebay does, in US currency, I'm not obligated to produce 1099's. If I don't do the value exchange in dollars, I must report the dollar equivalency to the IRS.
This law has yet to be enforced, but it surely would be if any of these currencies scaled up.
On Jan 23, 2011, at 11:59 AM, magius wrote:
Bitcoin and Opencoin are "sons" of David Chaum's Digicash both. Chaum is one of the most important cryptographers and freedom fighters in the world and invented in the eighties the first digital cash, that was refused, attacked and destroyed by credit card companies societies, that instead wanted to propagate a model not based on anonimity. The big difference between them is that Bitcoin is a complete currency system instead Opencoin is the system to make a currency (a digital mint). Bitcoin you need to use as-it-is, with Opencoin instead you can create your own currency system.
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In United States, the intention or category of service can't really be left to the interpretation of the doer. It is true that favors are not taxed. But the distinction between favor and commercial service is not left up to the people conducting the transaction to define. The favor must be in a field or service for which the doer does not get paid otherwise. A refrigerator repairman cannot fix someone's fridge in the non-taxable neighborhood scheme, because he does it professionally. The real distinction I'm trying to draw is less about whether the individuals need to report their income to the IRS than about whether the organization administrating those transactions is responsible for reporting to the IRS and those who conducted the transaction. If the currency corresponds to a fixed dollar amount, then the administrators of the transaction are not obligated to inform the traders of the cash-equivalent of the transaction, since it would already be known. On Jan 24, 2011, at 10:45 AM, Prof. Dr. Margrit Kennedy wrote:
very simply: as long as the exchange is equivalent to a neighborhood service you do not pay tax, as soon as you get into professional dimensions you do Margrit Kennedy
Prof. Dr. Margrit Kennedy MonNetA, Ginsterweg 3 31595 Steyerberg, Germany Tel. +49 5764 942403 [email protected] www.margritkennedy.de www.monneta.org
Am 24.01.2011 um 14:16 schrieb Douglas Rushkoff:
Meanwhile, Venessa Meimis just forwarded this:
www.unifiedfieldbank.com
On Jan 23, 2011, at 10:11 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
european LETS faced the same tax issues in the 80's-90's but they all seemed to have solved them ... but they do pay some kind of taxes,
do we have an expert on these aspects here?
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]
wrote: Fascinating. Sounds like he got the same attack that Paypal did in the early days, when the banks went after the company for earning its profit on the "float."
The thing that could bring Bitcoin to its knees in the US is the tax law. Ultimately, the network operator would be responsible for tax reporting when people are making exchanges of value and not using cash. I found all this out while working with the Superfluid guys. If I administrate trades for you like ebay does, in US currency, I'm not obligated to produce 1099's. If I don't do the value exchange in dollars, I must report the dollar equivalency to the IRS.
This law has yet to be enforced, but it surely would be if any of these currencies scaled up.
On Jan 23, 2011, at 11:59 AM, magius wrote:
Bitcoin and Opencoin are "sons" of David Chaum's Digicash both. Chaum is one of the most important cryptographers and freedom fighters in the world and invented in the eighties the first digital cash, that was refused, attacked and destroyed by credit card companies societies, that instead wanted to propagate a model not based on anonimity. The big difference between them is that Bitcoin is a complete currency system instead Opencoin is the system to make a currency (a digital mint). Bitcoin you need to use as-it-is, with Opencoin instead you can create your own currency system.
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unfortunately, they are also enclosing language by trademarking "community partnership banking" how one can even imagine to own ordinary language terms is beyond my comprehension, Michel On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:16 PM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]>wrote:
Meanwhile, Venessa Meimis just forwarded this:
www.unifiedfieldbank.com
<http://www.unifiedfieldbank.com/> On Jan 23, 2011, at 10:11 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
european LETS faced the same tax issues in the 80's-90's but they all seemed to have solved them ... but they do pay some kind of taxes,
do we have an expert on these aspects here?
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:16 AM, Douglas Rushkoff <[email protected]>wrote:
Fascinating. Sounds like he got the same attack that Paypal did in the early days, when the banks went after the company for earning its profit on the "float."
The thing that could bring Bitcoin to its knees in the US is the tax law. Ultimately, the network operator would be responsible for tax reporting when people are making exchanges of value and not using cash. I found all this out while working with the Superfluid guys. If I administrate trades for you like ebay does, in US currency, I'm not obligated to produce 1099's. If I don't do the value exchange in dollars, I must report the dollar equivalency to the IRS.
This law has yet to be enforced, but it surely would be if any of these currencies scaled up.
On Jan 23, 2011, at 11:59 AM, magius wrote:
Bitcoin and Opencoin are "sons" of David Chaum's Digicash both. Chaum is one of the most important cryptographers and freedom fighters in the world and invented in the eighties the first digital cash, that was refused, attacked and destroyed by credit card companies societies, that instead wanted to propagate a model not based on anonimity. The big difference between them is that Bitcoin is a complete currency system instead Opencoin is the system to make a currency (a digital mint). Bitcoin you need to use as-it-is, with Opencoin instead you can create your own currency system.
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participants (6)
-
Douglas Rushkoff -
Douglas Rushkoff -
magius -
Michel Bauwens -
Prof. Dr. Margrit Kennedy -
Samuel Rose