Dear Bernardo, many thanks for your message. I append the answer from Michel to Quiliro. In there you can read, that Michel don't like to continue the discussion about FLOK and all backgrounds. For me, the backgrounds are the most important parts. The financial relation in FLOK is not so important for me. But it is clear, that if you had made an agreement with the institutions from Ecuador, they have to follow this statements. Independent of any personal relations. Michel fly. He don't like this discussion to the state. And maybe, the most people in the FLOK environment don't like this discussion. But similar to Venezuela and Bolivia, we need this reflection. Many people wrote about, that in the ecuadorian society there is a big distance to the state and the practice of the institutions, that act as institutions for the state. And i read it also in your text. But we should be clear, never a state exist. It is a virtual construction and the employers use this only for her self identification. And the others relate to this construction to legitimate his special rights and permissions. The commons, the universal right to use the common resources for all people in the society, and the universal responsibility for all people in the society for her natural environment, the central part of the commons, is totally incompatible with the state construction, the roman state law. In general on our planet, always they have and use the "commons". And in Latin America the indigena use it today. Or want to use it, because all state systems in latin america try yo destroy the rests of it. This is, why i don't understand this theater together with the ecuadorian state. Maybe, my thinking is too radical for you. But we should speak open and free without any taboos. My way is very different, but on the same principles. We have to support the local communities in the development of here local independent economy, based on here local technical infrastructures. And for that all state institutions in latin america, what i know, are totally superflous. And also destructive and blocking. Therefore i wrote, that we have to make ourselv free from the state dogmatics. Not the people, because the most of them are free of that. The employers in the state institutions in her parasitic existence are the most strong defenders of the state. This we can see very clear in Venezuela and Nicaragua. The political base of the political elites are the employers of the state. And with the petro-dollars, the free-trade slaving systems, the plundering of the nature (extractivismo) the yes-sayer are bought. And now Michel Bauwens bring in the reactionary state ideologic in the open commons sphere. Like Elinor Ostrom. Of course, they need the state for her existence, direct or indirect. Or they think, this is the natural form of social society. But never any normal people on our planet was part of this decision-making processes. many greetings, willi Bogota, Colombia -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: Re: [Research] [investigacion] english version of the summit declaration Datum: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 22:23:16 +0700 Von: Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> An: Quiliro Ordóñez Baca <[email protected]> Kopie (CC): willi uebelherr <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>, Leopoldo Sanfuentes <[email protected]>, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>, Dania Irene Quirola Suarez <[email protected]>, Franz Nahrada <[email protected]>, jakob rigi <[email protected]> dear Quiliro, we have decided after a meeting with p2p-f to stop publishing critiques and to ignore them .. everyone is under a lot of pressure and we are spending too much time with negative energy ... nobody has been banned nor prevented from signing on consciously from the list, but after the complaints we are looking into it. James Burke says it's a technical issue (nobody can join) and he's looking to solve it, which should be very soon .. not sure what could cause an existing member to be out, that seems to be a different issue, but bernardo should explain the issue to james burke but be careful about what he says, for example, he deleted the fb threat, so he can deny it (we have many witnesses), as far as I know, he's entirely capable of removing himself, anyway, after a decision of the p2p collective, I'm turning my attention away from them, there are too many things to do, Michel -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: Re: Re: [Research] [investigacion] english version of the summit declaration Datum: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 12:27:21 -0300 Von: Bernardo Gutiérrez <[email protected]> An: willi uebelherr <[email protected]> Kopie (CC): Quiliro Ordóñez Baca <[email protected]>, Franz Nahrada <[email protected]>, jakob rigi <[email protected]>, xabier <[email protected]> Hello you all Thanks, Willi, for sharing this information. Again, I don 't respond to P2P list, because it is close, won 't be fair. I am quite surprised of all the accusations that Michel does, mainly in places where we can 't respond. I understand the mood as "nervous" and "emotional" reaction. Even, there are several misunderstandings. I am not doing anything that Michel thinks I am doing, just check the common lists. As I said before, I admire Wikileaks, so I would not have problems in publishing my private mails with Michel (all of them). The communities would have their own opinions about "wolfs", "sheeps", "commoners" and so. Publishing them wont help, of course. We are working for the commons and this kind of things don 't help. As I see that it is an old mail, I believe that it was a part of that stress, I won 't have in account the accusations and insults. It is part of the game. As a person who has been inside FLOK from September 2013 (one of the first), and has been phisically in Quito 4 months, I have a lot of things for enriching the conversations. I wont do it here, because de FLOK report, auto critical and deep, will be published soon. But, any way, what is is specially complicated is this> " promising juicy flok contracts" In this case, I am in the same side of Michel. I was contracted by Ecuatorian State. I have been suffered the same burocracy, the same stupid process. I have got paid (fev-march) few weeks ago. From the amount I was supposed to receive, after taxes, I got 4.100 dolars in my account (can send by here the prove of the payment). You have to disccount the São Paulo- Quito- São Paulo flight that I paid and the 200 dolars of the visa. So, 3.000 dolars. And from that, I had to pay aparment, expenses etc It is not much, but the FLOK process is so important that I started to engage and work for the project for many other things, first, without being paid, from São Paulo. The second part of my wage... I don t really know when the f..... I will be paid. But probably in September. I could publish in my Facebook account or write to the lists, upset with that. But I does not enrich the process. So, "juicy contracts"? wuau. I can barely get paid, so... What do you want to say? The collaborative process, the participatory strategy of the FLOK, has not spent a dolar. It is networking, commoning, a hard work with local communities. So, many collectives and movements that were not so enthusiastic with the initial project (it came from the State, "top down" so and so) finally engaged and will take the leadership of FLOK now. the summit changed many things and the Ecuatorian movements and even politicians began to feel the potencial of the FLOK. Specially enthusiastic are the communities of free software (leaded by Rafael Bonifaz), free culture (new paper going on) and open agriculture (that had an amazing work of the researchers). Xabier Barandiarán is copied in this mail. Now that everything is in peace, would be nice to build things together Best regards, Bernardo