Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
there is plenty of nihilist Leftist critique out there also especially from the dinosaur vertical Marxists who have a big problem with the anarchic inspired bottom up processes common to these anti-capialist/alter-globalization movements in Europe there is a lot more big tent solidarity then on display in the US... too many old Marxists, who should just shut up and send food parcels, instead whinge about discipline and have created a mini industry critiquing the publications of the movements the old, crusty, seedy Marxists, always say, "There is No Left in the USA". Now its obviously not true, they say "There is no Real, Rigorous, Dialectically Sophisticated, Disciplined Left in the USA" Occupying Occupy Together [image: Reply]Reply [image: More] Nicholas Roberts via<http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ctx=mail&answer=1311182> gmail.com to lbo-talk show details 12:29 PM (25 minutes ago) can I just make a general swing at the keyboard intellectuals. get of your arses and get down the places where people are gathering and get involved in the process its real easy to sit at home and read the amatuer, naive, often foolish media that comes out of these media events and spectacles even easier to type-up scathing nihilist critiques about the failure of the Left, the faults of the young, the weakness of the institutions etc etc etc etc etc there is plenty of material, and its been done, too much now is a time, to actually do something, and its time to be an organic intellectual and participate in the messy, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable realities of these kinds of democratic actions soon enough it will dissipate, and you can go back to eating the shit sandwhich of Amercian life but today, and for the next few days, there is something happening worth participating in take your intellect, your knowledge, your experience and GO HELP
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Fw: Cheap "Jibe" at Protestors.... (robert searle)
You can increase your effectiveness Nicholas-by encouraging capitalists who are against criminal crony behavior to join in against the fraud and lies of the common enemy-Wall Street Do that by helping to make peace out there and not drive away the libertarians & moderate tea baggers/populists. The media (paid for by Wall Street) is using this protest to divide & destroy From: Nicholas Roberts Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:55 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 there is plenty of nihilist Leftist critique out there also especially from the dinosaur vertical Marxists who have a big problem with the anarchic inspired bottom up processes common to these anti-capialist/alter-globalization movements in Europe there is a lot more big tent solidarity then on display in the US... too many old Marxists, who should just shut up and send food parcels, instead whinge about discipline and have created a mini industry critiquing the publications of the movements the old, crusty, seedy Marxists, always say, "There is No Left in the USA". Now its obviously not true, they say "There is no Real, Rigorous, Dialectically Sophisticated, Disciplined Left in the USA" Occupying Occupy Together ReplyNicholas Roberts via gmail.com to lbo-talk show details 12:29 PM (25 minutes ago) can I just make a general swing at the keyboard intellectuals. get of your arses and get down the places where people are gathering and get involved in the process its real easy to sit at home and read the amatuer, naive, often foolish media that comes out of these media events and spectacles even easier to type-up scathing nihilist critiques about the failure of the Left, the faults of the young, the weakness of the institutions etc etc etc etc etc there is plenty of material, and its been done, too much now is a time, to actually do something, and its time to be an organic intellectual and participate in the messy, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable realities of these kinds of democratic actions soon enough it will dissipate, and you can go back to eating the shit sandwhich of Amercian life but today, and for the next few days, there is something happening worth participating in take your intellect, your knowledge, your experience and GO HELP Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fw: Cheap "Jibe" at Protestors.... (robert searle) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
The problem Natalie is that the libertarians/tea baggers would destroy the only modality through which citizens can exert their will and do something about the mess... The corporations aren't going to do it obviously, so who/what else other than a responsive and responsible government can act as a means for citizens to exert their power in a democracy. Citizens need a structure to work through to exercise their power. To destroy government and sanctify corporate structures is to fall for the shell game that the Wall Street mob and their cronies are trying fob off as a political/economic theory. The fact that the existing structures are corrupted means that the task of making them suitable for exercising this will is rather more difficult and long term but as Maggie Thatcher would say TINA. M -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Natalie Golovin Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:48 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 You can increase your effectiveness Nicholas-by encouraging capitalists who are against criminal crony behavior to join in against the fraud and lies of the common enemy-Wall Street Do that by helping to make peace out there and not drive away the libertarians & moderate tea baggers/populists. The media (paid for by Wall Street) is using this protest to divide & destroy From: Nicholas Roberts <mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:55 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 there is plenty of nihilist Leftist critique out there also especially from the dinosaur vertical Marxists who have a big problem with the anarchic inspired bottom up processes common to these anti-capialist/alter-globalization movements in Europe there is a lot more big tent solidarity then on display in the US... too many old Marxists, who should just shut up and send food parcels, instead whinge about discipline and have created a mini industry critiquing the publications of the movements the old, crusty, seedy Marxists, always say, "There is No Left in the USA". Now its obviously not true, they say "There is no Real, Rigorous, Dialectically Sophisticated, Disciplined Left in the USA" Occupying Occupy Together Reply <https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif> Reply More <https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif> <https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif> <https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif> Nicholas Roberts via <http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ctx=mail&answer=1311182> gmail.com to lbo-talk show details 12:29 PM (25 minutes ago) can I just make a general swing at the keyboard intellectuals. get of your arses and get down the places where people are gathering and get involved in the process its real easy to sit at home and read the amatuer, naive, often foolish media that comes out of these media events and spectacles even easier to type-up scathing nihilist critiques about the failure of the Left, the faults of the young, the weakness of the institutions etc etc etc etc etc there is plenty of material, and its been done, too much now is a time, to actually do something, and its time to be an organic intellectual and participate in the messy, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable realities of these kinds of democratic actions soon enough it will dissipate, and you can go back to eating the shit sandwhich of Amercian life but today, and for the next few days, there is something happening worth participating in take your intellect, your knowledge, your experience and GO HELP Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fw: Cheap "Jibe" at Protestors.... (robert searle) _____ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
MessageHow so, Michael? The Libertarians aren’t for destruction of govt-they’re for limited & honest govt. Once the big money (provided by the FED in conjunction with lobbyists) is curtailed & global monopoly power is restricted-maybe govt can be unchained and responsive to the people. From: michael gurstein Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:58 PM To: 'P2P Foundation mailing list' Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 The problem Natalie is that the libertarians/tea baggers would destroy the only modality through which citizens can exert their will and do something about the mess... The corporations aren't going to do it obviously, so who/what else other than a responsive and responsible government can act as a means for citizens to exert their power in a democracy. Citizens need a structure to work through to exercise their power. To destroy government and sanctify corporate structures is to fall for the shell game that the Wall Street mob and their cronies are trying fob off as a political/economic theory. The fact that the existing structures are corrupted means that the task of making them suitable for exercising this will is rather more difficult and long term but as Maggie Thatcher would say TINA. M -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Natalie Golovin Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:48 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 You can increase your effectiveness Nicholas-by encouraging capitalists who are against criminal crony behavior to join in against the fraud and lies of the common enemy-Wall Street Do that by helping to make peace out there and not drive away the libertarians & moderate tea baggers/populists. The media (paid for by Wall Street) is using this protest to divide & destroy From: Nicholas Roberts Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:55 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 there is plenty of nihilist Leftist critique out there also especially from the dinosaur vertical Marxists who have a big problem with the anarchic inspired bottom up processes common to these anti-capialist/alter-globalization movements in Europe there is a lot more big tent solidarity then on display in the US... too many old Marxists, who should just shut up and send food parcels, instead whinge about discipline and have created a mini industry critiquing the publications of the movements the old, crusty, seedy Marxists, always say, "There is No Left in the USA". Now its obviously not true, they say "There is no Real, Rigorous, Dialectically Sophisticated, Disciplined Left in the USA" Occupying Occupy Together ReplyNicholas Roberts via gmail.com to lbo-talk show details 12:29 PM (25 minutes ago) can I just make a general swing at the keyboard intellectuals. get of your arses and get down the places where people are gathering and get involved in the process its real easy to sit at home and read the amatuer, naive, often foolish media that comes out of these media events and spectacles even easier to type-up scathing nihilist critiques about the failure of the Left, the faults of the young, the weakness of the institutions etc etc etc etc etc there is plenty of material, and its been done, too much now is a time, to actually do something, and its time to be an organic intellectual and participate in the messy, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable realities of these kinds of democratic actions soon enough it will dissipate, and you can go back to eating the shit sandwhich of Amercian life but today, and for the next few days, there is something happening worth participating in take your intellect, your knowledge, your experience and GO HELP Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fw: Cheap "Jibe" at Protestors.... (robert searle) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Hmmm... M The Libertarianism FAQ http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A6 A6. Do libertarians want to abolish the government? Libertarians want to abolish as much government as they practically can. About 3/4 are "minarchists" who favor stripping government of most of its accumulated power to meddle, leaving only the police and courts for law enforcement and a sharply reduced military for national defense (nowadays some might also leave special powers for environmental enforcement). The other 1/4 (including the author of this FAQ) are out-and-out anarchists who believe that "limited government" is a delusion and the free market can provide better law, order, and security than any goverment monopoly. Also, current libertarian political candidates recognize that you can't demolish a government as large as ours overnight, and that great care must be taken in dismantling it carefully. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Natalie Golovin Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 4:38 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 How so, Michael? The Libertarians aren't for destruction of govt-they're for limited & honest govt. Once the big money (provided by the FED in conjunction with lobbyists) is curtailed & global monopoly power is restricted-maybe govt can be unchained and responsive to the people. From: michael gurstein <mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:58 PM To: 'P2P Foundation mailing <mailto:[email protected]> list' Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 The problem Natalie is that the libertarians/tea baggers would destroy the only modality through which citizens can exert their will and do something about the mess... The corporations aren't going to do it obviously, so who/what else other than a responsive and responsible government can act as a means for citizens to exert their power in a democracy. Citizens need a structure to work through to exercise their power. To destroy government and sanctify corporate structures is to fall for the shell game that the Wall Street mob and their cronies are trying fob off as a political/economic theory. The fact that the existing structures are corrupted means that the task of making them suitable for exercising this will is rather more difficult and long term but as Maggie Thatcher would say TINA. M -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Natalie Golovin Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:48 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 You can increase your effectiveness Nicholas-by encouraging capitalists who are against criminal crony behavior to join in against the fraud and lies of the common enemy-Wall Street Do that by helping to make peace out there and not drive away the libertarians & moderate tea baggers/populists. The media (paid for by Wall Street) is using this protest to divide & destroy From: Nicholas Roberts <mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:55 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 there is plenty of nihilist Leftist critique out there also especially from the dinosaur vertical Marxists who have a big problem with the anarchic inspired bottom up processes common to these anti-capialist/alter-globalization movements in Europe there is a lot more big tent solidarity then on display in the US... too many old Marxists, who should just shut up and send food parcels, instead whinge about discipline and have created a mini industry critiquing the publications of the movements the old, crusty, seedy Marxists, always say, "There is No Left in the USA". Now its obviously not true, they say "There is no Real, Rigorous, Dialectically Sophisticated, Disciplined Left in the USA" Occupying Occupy Together Reply <https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif> Reply More <https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif> <https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif> <https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif> Nicholas Roberts via <http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ctx=mail&answer=1311182> gmail.com to lbo-talk show details 12:29 PM (25 minutes ago) can I just make a general swing at the keyboard intellectuals. get of your arses and get down the places where people are gathering and get involved in the process its real easy to sit at home and read the amatuer, naive, often foolish media that comes out of these media events and spectacles even easier to type-up scathing nihilist critiques about the failure of the Left, the faults of the young, the weakness of the institutions etc etc etc etc etc there is plenty of material, and its been done, too much now is a time, to actually do something, and its time to be an organic intellectual and participate in the messy, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable realities of these kinds of democratic actions soon enough it will dissipate, and you can go back to eating the shit sandwhich of Amercian life but today, and for the next few days, there is something happening worth participating in take your intellect, your knowledge, your experience and GO HELP Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fw: Cheap "Jibe" at Protestors.... (robert searle) _____ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation _____ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
MessageI think you mean the Federal Govt. Real democracy can thrive at the state and local levels if the “State” can be made to wither away a little. From: michael gurstein Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 6:19 PM To: 'P2P Foundation mailing list' Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 Hmmm... M The Libertarianism FAQ http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A6 A6. Do libertarians want to abolish the government? Libertarians want to abolish as much government as they practically can. About 3/4 are "minarchists" who favor stripping government of most of its accumulated power to meddle, leaving only the police and courts for law enforcement and a sharply reduced military for national defense (nowadays some might also leave special powers for environmental enforcement). The other 1/4 (including the author of this FAQ) are out-and-out anarchists who believe that "limited government" is a delusion and the free market can provide better law, order, and security than any goverment monopoly. Also, current libertarian political candidates recognize that you can't demolish a government as large as ours overnight, and that great care must be taken in dismantling it carefully. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Natalie Golovin Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 4:38 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 How so, Michael? The Libertarians aren’t for destruction of govt-they’re for limited & honest govt. Once the big money (provided by the FED in conjunction with lobbyists) is curtailed & global monopoly power is restricted-maybe govt can be unchained and responsive to the people. From: michael gurstein Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:58 PM To: 'P2P Foundation mailing list' Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 The problem Natalie is that the libertarians/tea baggers would destroy the only modality through which citizens can exert their will and do something about the mess... The corporations aren't going to do it obviously, so who/what else other than a responsive and responsible government can act as a means for citizens to exert their power in a democracy. Citizens need a structure to work through to exercise their power. To destroy government and sanctify corporate structures is to fall for the shell game that the Wall Street mob and their cronies are trying fob off as a political/economic theory. The fact that the existing structures are corrupted means that the task of making them suitable for exercising this will is rather more difficult and long term but as Maggie Thatcher would say TINA. M -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Natalie Golovin Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:48 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 You can increase your effectiveness Nicholas-by encouraging capitalists who are against criminal crony behavior to join in against the fraud and lies of the common enemy-Wall Street Do that by helping to make peace out there and not drive away the libertarians & moderate tea baggers/populists. The media (paid for by Wall Street) is using this protest to divide & destroy From: Nicholas Roberts Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:55 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 there is plenty of nihilist Leftist critique out there also especially from the dinosaur vertical Marxists who have a big problem with the anarchic inspired bottom up processes common to these anti-capialist/alter-globalization movements in Europe there is a lot more big tent solidarity then on display in the US... too many old Marxists, who should just shut up and send food parcels, instead whinge about discipline and have created a mini industry critiquing the publications of the movements the old, crusty, seedy Marxists, always say, "There is No Left in the USA". Now its obviously not true, they say "There is no Real, Rigorous, Dialectically Sophisticated, Disciplined Left in the USA" Occupying Occupy Together ReplyNicholas Roberts via gmail.com to lbo-talk show details 12:29 PM (25 minutes ago) can I just make a general swing at the keyboard intellectuals. get of your arses and get down the places where people are gathering and get involved in the process its real easy to sit at home and read the amatuer, naive, often foolish media that comes out of these media events and spectacles even easier to type-up scathing nihilist critiques about the failure of the Left, the faults of the young, the weakness of the institutions etc etc etc etc etc there is plenty of material, and its been done, too much now is a time, to actually do something, and its time to be an organic intellectual and participate in the messy, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable realities of these kinds of democratic actions soon enough it will dissipate, and you can go back to eating the shit sandwhich of Amercian life but today, and for the next few days, there is something happening worth participating in take your intellect, your knowledge, your experience and GO HELP Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fw: Cheap "Jibe" at Protestors.... (robert searle) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
It's not possible for people that strive for equaliberty to have full alliances with political forces that are for all practical purposes against equality ... however, it is possible to find commonality around practical demands, such as the Nader/Paul agreement (with proviso of their balanced budget clause, which should be opposed in the current context). Anarcho-capitalism is a contradiction in terms, the two terms are not compatible. (I say this as being identified with neither half) but It seems to me that Natalie wants the overall majority of people at OWS to give up on their political identities, and that's not a realistic demand. The demand to absolutize the market form is not compatible with the mainstream demands of OSW .. this has nothing to do with a plot of the mainstream media, as if they are responsible for the Declaration of Wall Street Occupiers but with the consensus of the general assemblies ... As a consensus-based methodology, the agreement goes to the very basics of the common feeling, and does not go into detailed political demands of special political forces. Many people on the left are just as frustrated about the demands as Natalie is. Also, consensus is not permanent compromise and compromission, the result of the latter clearly visible in the permanent failure of the Obama administration. I would say, focus on the demands that are compatible with your worldview and just participate in the assemblies to make your view heard ... as I understand it's a non-representational process, where each individual can have his voice heard, as an individual ... On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
I think you mean the Federal Govt. Real democracy can thrive at the state and local levels if the “State” can be made to wither away a little.
*From:* michael gurstein <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 6:19 PM *To:* 'P2P Foundation mailing list' <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
Hmmm...
M
The Libertarianism FAQ http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A6
A6. Do libertarians want to abolish the government?
Libertarians want to abolish as much government as they practically can. About 3/4 are "minarchists" who favor stripping government of most of its accumulated power to meddle, leaving only the police and courts for law enforcement and a sharply reduced military for national defense (nowadays some might also leave special powers for environmental enforcement). The other 1/4 (including the author of this FAQ) are out-and-out anarchists who believe that "limited government" is a delusion and the free market can provide better law, order, and security than any goverment monopoly.
Also, current libertarian political candidates recognize that you can't demolish a government as large as ours overnight, and that great care must be taken in dismantling it carefully.
-----Original Message----- *From:* [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Natalie Golovin *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 4:38 PM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
How so, Michael? The Libertarians aren’t for destruction of govt-they’re for limited & honest govt. Once the big money (provided by the FED in conjunction with lobbyists) is curtailed & global monopoly power is restricted-maybe govt can be unchained and responsive to the people.
*From:* michael gurstein <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:58 PM *To:* 'P2P Foundation mailing list' <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
The problem Natalie is that the libertarians/tea baggers would destroy the only modality through which citizens can exert their will and do something about the mess...
The corporations aren't going to do it obviously, so who/what else other than a responsive and responsible government can act as a means for citizens to exert their power in a democracy.
Citizens need a structure to work through to exercise their power. To destroy government and sanctify corporate structures is to fall for the shell game that the Wall Street mob and their cronies are trying fob off as a political/economic theory.
The fact that the existing structures are corrupted means that the task of making them suitable for exercising this will is rather more difficult and long term but as Maggie Thatcher would say TINA.
M
-----Original Message----- *From:* [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Natalie Golovin *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:48 PM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
You can increase your effectiveness Nicholas-by encouraging capitalists who are against criminal crony behavior to join in against the fraud and lies of the common enemy-Wall Street Do that by helping to make peace out there and not drive away the libertarians & moderate tea baggers/populists. The media (paid for by Wall Street) is using this protest to divide & destroy
*From:* Nicholas Roberts <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:55 PM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
there is plenty of nihilist Leftist critique out there also
especially from the dinosaur vertical Marxists who have a big problem with the anarchic inspired bottom up processes common to these anti-capialist/alter-globalization movements
in Europe there is a lot more big tent solidarity then on display in the US...
too many old Marxists, who should just shut up and send food parcels, instead whinge about discipline and have created a mini industry critiquing the publications of the movements
the old, crusty, seedy Marxists, always say, "There is No Left in the USA". Now its obviously not true, they say "There is no Real, Rigorous, Dialectically Sophisticated, Disciplined Left in the USA"
Occupying Occupy Together [image: Reply]Reply [image: More] Nicholas Roberts via<http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ctx=mail&answer=1311182> gmail.com to lbo-talk show details 12:29 PM (25 minutes ago) can I just make a general swing at the keyboard intellectuals.
get of your arses and get down the places where people are gathering and get involved in the process
its real easy to sit at home and read the amatuer, naive, often foolish media that comes out of these media events and spectacles
even easier to type-up scathing nihilist critiques about the failure of the Left, the faults of the young, the weakness of the institutions etc etc etc etc etc
there is plenty of material, and its been done, too much
now is a time, to actually do something, and its time to be an organic intellectual and participate in the messy, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable realities of these kinds of democratic actions
soon enough it will dissipate, and you can go back to eating the shit sandwhich of Amercian life
but today, and for the next few days, there is something happening worth participating in
take your intellect, your knowledge, your experience and GO HELP
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Fw: Cheap "Jibe" at Protestors.... (robert searle)
------------------------------ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
------------------------------ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
------------------------------ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
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I question the concept of equalibery. Equal works in math formulas not human experience. From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 8:02 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 It's not possible for people that strive for equaliberty to have full alliances with political forces that are for all practical purposes against equality ... however, it is possible to find commonality around practical demands, such as the Nader/Paul agreement (with proviso of their balanced budget clause, which should be opposed in the current context). Anarcho-capitalism is a contradiction in terms, the two terms are not compatible. (I say this as being identified with neither half) but It seems to me that Natalie wants the overall majority of people at OWS to give up on their political identities, and that's not a realistic demand. The demand to absolutize the market form is not compatible with the mainstream demands of OSW .. this has nothing to do with a plot of the mainstream media, as if they are responsible for the Declaration of Wall Street Occupiers but with the consensus of the general assemblies ... As a consensus-based methodology, the agreement goes to the very basics of the common feeling, and does not go into detailed political demands of special political forces. Many people on the left are just as frustrated about the demands as Natalie is. Also, consensus is not permanent compromise and compromission, the result of the latter clearly visible in the permanent failure of the Obama administration. I would say, focus on the demands that are compatible with your worldview and just participate in the assemblies to make your view heard ... as I understand it's a non-representational process, where each individual can have his voice heard, as an individual ... On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: I think you mean the Federal Govt. Real democracy can thrive at the state and local levels if the “State” can be made to wither away a little. From: michael gurstein Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 6:19 PM To: 'P2P Foundation mailing list' Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 Hmmm... M The Libertarianism FAQ http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A6 A6. Do libertarians want to abolish the government? Libertarians want to abolish as much government as they practically can. About 3/4 are "minarchists" who favor stripping government of most of its accumulated power to meddle, leaving only the police and courts for law enforcement and a sharply reduced military for national defense (nowadays some might also leave special powers for environmental enforcement). The other 1/4 (including the author of this FAQ) are out-and-out anarchists who believe that "limited government" is a delusion and the free market can provide better law, order, and security than any goverment monopoly. Also, current libertarian political candidates recognize that you can't demolish a government as large as ours overnight, and that great care must be taken in dismantling it carefully. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Natalie Golovin Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 4:38 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 How so, Michael? The Libertarians aren’t for destruction of govt-they’re for limited & honest govt. Once the big money (provided by the FED in conjunction with lobbyists) is curtailed & global monopoly power is restricted-maybe govt can be unchained and responsive to the people. From: michael gurstein Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:58 PM To: 'P2P Foundation mailing list' Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 The problem Natalie is that the libertarians/tea baggers would destroy the only modality through which citizens can exert their will and do something about the mess... The corporations aren't going to do it obviously, so who/what else other than a responsive and responsible government can act as a means for citizens to exert their power in a democracy. Citizens need a structure to work through to exercise their power. To destroy government and sanctify corporate structures is to fall for the shell game that the Wall Street mob and their cronies are trying fob off as a political/economic theory. The fact that the existing structures are corrupted means that the task of making them suitable for exercising this will is rather more difficult and long term but as Maggie Thatcher would say TINA. M -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Natalie Golovin Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:48 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 You can increase your effectiveness Nicholas-by encouraging capitalists who are against criminal crony behavior to join in against the fraud and lies of the common enemy-Wall Street Do that by helping to make peace out there and not drive away the libertarians & moderate tea baggers/populists. The media (paid for by Wall Street) is using this protest to divide & destroy From: Nicholas Roberts Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:55 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 there is plenty of nihilist Leftist critique out there also especially from the dinosaur vertical Marxists who have a big problem with the anarchic inspired bottom up processes common to these anti-capialist/alter-globalization movements in Europe there is a lot more big tent solidarity then on display in the US... too many old Marxists, who should just shut up and send food parcels, instead whinge about discipline and have created a mini industry critiquing the publications of the movements the old, crusty, seedy Marxists, always say, "There is No Left in the USA". Now its obviously not true, they say "There is no Real, Rigorous, Dialectically Sophisticated, Disciplined Left in the USA" Occupying Occupy Together ReplyNicholas Roberts via gmail.com to lbo-talk show details 12:29 PM (25 minutes ago) can I just make a general swing at the keyboard intellectuals. get of your arses and get down the places where people are gathering and get involved in the process its real easy to sit at home and read the amatuer, naive, often foolish media that comes out of these media events and spectacles even easier to type-up scathing nihilist critiques about the failure of the Left, the faults of the young, the weakness of the institutions etc etc etc etc etc there is plenty of material, and its been done, too much now is a time, to actually do something, and its time to be an organic intellectual and participate in the messy, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable realities of these kinds of democratic actions soon enough it will dissipate, and you can go back to eating the shit sandwhich of Amercian life but today, and for the next few days, there is something happening worth participating in take your intellect, your knowledge, your experience and GO HELP Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fw: Cheap "Jibe" at Protestors.... (robert searle) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Hi Natalie, In my conception, equality is the condition for liberty and vice versa. How can you be free, when others are enslaved? Previous political eras mostly saw them as opposed, and this is pretty much what the struggle between socialism and liberalism was interpreted as being about, but in my opinion, and for an increased number of others, they have to be held together. But perhaps you think of equality as sameness, etc ... Defining equality is quite complex I guess, with a polarity from equality of opportunity, on the progressive liberal side of things, to a demand for more actual 'real' equality, see for example, http://p2pfoundation.net/Complex_Equality ; Peer to peer pretty much says it all, if you are unequal, you can't be a peer, And why is equality important, especially now with #occupywallstreet, which is a quintessentially egalitarian movement? First of all, because of this: * http://p2pfoundation.net/Why_Greater_Equality_Makes_Societies_Stronger and second, from the horses mouth, the IMF: "Speaking of the 99% versus the 1% - a new report out of the International Monetary Fund finds that one of the greatest factors for prolonged economic growth in a nation is a low level of wealth inequality. By reviewing economies around the world – and looking at economic variables such as political institutions, debt, and trade – the study found that by far – it’s wealth inequality that has the greatest effect on sustained economic growth – and that if nations are made 10% more equitable in their wealth distribution – then they could see economic growth sustained for 50% longer. " (http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2011/10/speaking-99-versus-1) and specially for you, from a libertarian manifesto: - Concern for the downtrodden Furthermore concern for the downtrodden follows from left-libertarian opposition to aggression against innocents. Those aggressed against- the oppressed- are just one group of the downtrodden. - Current Distribution of wealth and land Following from the previous post the recognition that current distribution of wealth and land is largely due to state intervention whether that be barriers to entry or statist privilege and that just because someone is wealthy need not mean they achieved it themselves and just because someone is poor does not mean that they make bad lifestyle choices.Following from this understanding we must reject classist prejudices. (http://p2pfoundation.net/Left_Libertarianism) On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
I question the concept of equalibery. Equal works in math formulas not human experience.
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 8:02 PM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
It's not possible for people that strive for equaliberty to have full alliances with political forces that are for all practical purposes against equality ... however, it is possible to find commonality around practical demands, such as the Nader/Paul agreement (with proviso of their balanced budget clause, which should be opposed in the current context). Anarcho-capitalism is a contradiction in terms, the two terms are not compatible. (I say this as being identified with neither half)
but It seems to me that Natalie wants the overall majority of people at OWS to give up on their political identities, and that's not a realistic demand. The demand to absolutize the market form is not compatible with the mainstream demands of OSW .. this has nothing to do with a plot of the mainstream media, as if they are responsible for the Declaration of Wall Street Occupiers but with the consensus of the general assemblies ... As a consensus-based methodology, the agreement goes to the very basics of the common feeling, and does not go into detailed political demands of special political forces. Many people on the left are just as frustrated about the demands as Natalie is. Also, consensus is not permanent compromise and compromission, the result of the latter clearly visible in the permanent failure of the Obama administration.
I would say, focus on the demands that are compatible with your worldview and just participate in the assemblies to make your view heard ... as I understand it's a non-representational process, where each individual can have his voice heard, as an individual ...
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
I think you mean the Federal Govt. Real democracy can thrive at the state and local levels if the “State” can be made to wither away a little.
*From:* michael gurstein <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 6:19 PM *To:* 'P2P Foundation mailing list'<[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
Hmmm...
M
The Libertarianism FAQ http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A6
A6. Do libertarians want to abolish the government?
Libertarians want to abolish as much government as they practically can. About 3/4 are "minarchists" who favor stripping government of most of its accumulated power to meddle, leaving only the police and courts for law enforcement and a sharply reduced military for national defense (nowadays some might also leave special powers for environmental enforcement). The other 1/4 (including the author of this FAQ) are out-and-out anarchists who believe that "limited government" is a delusion and the free market can provide better law, order, and security than any goverment monopoly.
Also, current libertarian political candidates recognize that you can't demolish a government as large as ours overnight, and that great care must be taken in dismantling it carefully.
-----Original Message----- *From:* [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Natalie Golovin *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 4:38 PM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
How so, Michael? The Libertarians aren’t for destruction of govt-they’re for limited & honest govt. Once the big money (provided by the FED in conjunction with lobbyists) is curtailed & global monopoly power is restricted-maybe govt can be unchained and responsive to the people.
*From:* michael gurstein <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:58 PM *To:* 'P2P Foundation mailing list' <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
The problem Natalie is that the libertarians/tea baggers would destroy the only modality through which citizens can exert their will and do something about the mess...
The corporations aren't going to do it obviously, so who/what else other than a responsive and responsible government can act as a means for citizens to exert their power in a democracy.
Citizens need a structure to work through to exercise their power. To destroy government and sanctify corporate structures is to fall for the shell game that the Wall Street mob and their cronies are trying fob off as a political/economic theory.
The fact that the existing structures are corrupted means that the task of making them suitable for exercising this will is rather more difficult and long term but as Maggie Thatcher would say TINA.
M
-----Original Message----- *From:* [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Natalie Golovin *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:48 PM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
You can increase your effectiveness Nicholas-by encouraging capitalists who are against criminal crony behavior to join in against the fraud and lies of the common enemy-Wall Street Do that by helping to make peace out there and not drive away the libertarians & moderate tea baggers/populists. The media (paid for by Wall Street) is using this protest to divide & destroy
*From:* Nicholas Roberts <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:55 PM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
there is plenty of nihilist Leftist critique out there also
especially from the dinosaur vertical Marxists who have a big problem with the anarchic inspired bottom up processes common to these anti-capialist/alter-globalization movements
in Europe there is a lot more big tent solidarity then on display in the US...
too many old Marxists, who should just shut up and send food parcels, instead whinge about discipline and have created a mini industry critiquing the publications of the movements
the old, crusty, seedy Marxists, always say, "There is No Left in the USA". Now its obviously not true, they say "There is no Real, Rigorous, Dialectically Sophisticated, Disciplined Left in the USA"
Occupying Occupy Together [image: Reply]Reply [image: More] Nicholas Roberts via<http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ctx=mail&answer=1311182> gmail.com to lbo-talk show details 12:29 PM (25 minutes ago) can I just make a general swing at the keyboard intellectuals.
get of your arses and get down the places where people are gathering and get involved in the process
its real easy to sit at home and read the amatuer, naive, often foolish media that comes out of these media events and spectacles
even easier to type-up scathing nihilist critiques about the failure of the Left, the faults of the young, the weakness of the institutions etc etc etc etc etc
there is plenty of material, and its been done, too much
now is a time, to actually do something, and its time to be an organic intellectual and participate in the messy, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable realities of these kinds of democratic actions
soon enough it will dissipate, and you can go back to eating the shit sandwhich of Amercian life
but today, and for the next few days, there is something happening worth participating in
take your intellect, your knowledge, your experience and GO HELP
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Fw: Cheap "Jibe" at Protestors.... (robert searle)
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Hello Michel-I see people born unequal physically (including mental capacities/many different intelligences) and developing even more so with differences in nurturing, family circumstances, culture, experience, accident, etc. Inequality can often be useful in directing talents to activities needed by the larger social entity. And these needs change over time in complex societies. Ethical governments work for equal opportunity and demand equal justice. That’s a tall order in itself as govts are composed of humans which can be tempted to work for themselves or subgroups. I believe there is an innate tribal instinct that persists, which makes it even more difficult for govts to function effectively in highly diverse populations. Socialism seems to work better in small, homogeneous nations. I see peers as cohort groups not as some kind of existential equivalents. Equality as a condition for liberty makes sense to me only as it pertains to a segment you’re holding constant. For example, citizens in Republican Rome were more equal in liberty (even though many termed non-citizens lived as slaves) than the citizens of a modern US state with all its legal protections. I think you’re expecting too much from govt. Our differences may be based on the contrary assumptions of whether we’re beasts that must be prevented from doing harm or Rousseau’s kind savages that just need an opportunity to do good. That’s the basic political split. My impressions from history point to the former view with hopeful allowances for the evolution of people & their govts. From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:41 AM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 Hi Natalie, In my conception, equality is the condition for liberty and vice versa. How can you be free, when others are enslaved? Previous political eras mostly saw them as opposed, and this is pretty much what the struggle between socialism and liberalism was interpreted as being about, but in my opinion, and for an increased number of others, they have to be held together. But perhaps you think of equality as sameness, etc ... Defining equality is quite complex I guess, with a polarity from equality of opportunity, on the progressive liberal side of things, to a demand for more actual 'real' equality, see for example, http://p2pfoundation.net/Complex_Equality ; Peer to peer pretty much says it all, if you are unequal, you can't be a peer, And why is equality important, especially now with #occupywallstreet, which is a quintessentially egalitarian movement? First of all, because of this: * http://p2pfoundation.net/Why_Greater_Equality_Makes_Societies_Stronger and second, from the horses mouth, the IMF: "Speaking of the 99% versus the 1% - a new report out of the International Monetary Fund finds that one of the greatest factors for prolonged economic growth in a nation is a low level of wealth inequality. By reviewing economies around the world – and looking at economic variables such as political institutions, debt, and trade – the study found that by far – it’s wealth inequality that has the greatest effect on sustained economic growth – and that if nations are made 10% more equitable in their wealth distribution – then they could see economic growth sustained for 50% longer. " (http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2011/10/speaking-99-versus-1) and specially for you, from a libertarian manifesto: a.. Concern for the downtrodden Furthermore concern for the downtrodden follows from left-libertarian opposition to aggression against innocents. Those aggressed against- the oppressed- are just one group of the downtrodden. a.. Current Distribution of wealth and land Following from the previous post the recognition that current distribution of wealth and land is largely due to state intervention whether that be barriers to entry or statist privilege and that just because someone is wealthy need not mean they achieved it themselves and just because someone is poor does not mean that they make bad lifestyle choices.Following from this understanding we must reject classist prejudices. (http://p2pfoundation.net/Left_Libertarianism) On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: I question the concept of equalibery. Equal works in math formulas not human experience. From: Michel Bauwens Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 8:02 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 It's not possible for people that strive for equaliberty to have full alliances with political forces that are for all practical purposes against equality ... however, it is possible to find commonality around practical demands, such as the Nader/Paul agreement (with proviso of their balanced budget clause, which should be opposed in the current context). Anarcho-capitalism is a contradiction in terms, the two terms are not compatible. (I say this as being identified with neither half) but It seems to me that Natalie wants the overall majority of people at OWS to give up on their political identities, and that's not a realistic demand. The demand to absolutize the market form is not compatible with the mainstream demands of OSW .. this has nothing to do with a plot of the mainstream media, as if they are responsible for the Declaration of Wall Street Occupiers but with the consensus of the general assemblies ... As a consensus-based methodology, the agreement goes to the very basics of the common feeling, and does not go into detailed political demands of special political forces. Many people on the left are just as frustrated about the demands as Natalie is. Also, consensus is not permanent compromise and compromission, the result of the latter clearly visible in the permanent failure of the Obama administration. I would say, focus on the demands that are compatible with your worldview and just participate in the assemblies to make your view heard ... as I understand it's a non-representational process, where each individual can have his voice heard, as an individual ... On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote: I think you mean the Federal Govt. Real democracy can thrive at the state and local levels if the “State” can be made to wither away a little. From: michael gurstein Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 6:19 PM To: 'P2P Foundation mailing list' Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 Hmmm... M The Libertarianism FAQ http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A6 A6. Do libertarians want to abolish the government? Libertarians want to abolish as much government as they practically can. About 3/4 are "minarchists" who favor stripping government of most of its accumulated power to meddle, leaving only the police and courts for law enforcement and a sharply reduced military for national defense (nowadays some might also leave special powers for environmental enforcement). The other 1/4 (including the author of this FAQ) are out-and-out anarchists who believe that "limited government" is a delusion and the free market can provide better law, order, and security than any goverment monopoly. Also, current libertarian political candidates recognize that you can't demolish a government as large as ours overnight, and that great care must be taken in dismantling it carefully. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Natalie Golovin Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 4:38 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 How so, Michael? The Libertarians aren’t for destruction of govt-they’re for limited & honest govt. Once the big money (provided by the FED in conjunction with lobbyists) is curtailed & global monopoly power is restricted-maybe govt can be unchained and responsive to the people. From: michael gurstein Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:58 PM To: 'P2P Foundation mailing list' Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 The problem Natalie is that the libertarians/tea baggers would destroy the only modality through which citizens can exert their will and do something about the mess... The corporations aren't going to do it obviously, so who/what else other than a responsive and responsible government can act as a means for citizens to exert their power in a democracy. Citizens need a structure to work through to exercise their power. To destroy government and sanctify corporate structures is to fall for the shell game that the Wall Street mob and their cronies are trying fob off as a political/economic theory. The fact that the existing structures are corrupted means that the task of making them suitable for exercising this will is rather more difficult and long term but as Maggie Thatcher would say TINA. M -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Natalie Golovin Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:48 PM To: P2P Foundation mailing list Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 You can increase your effectiveness Nicholas-by encouraging capitalists who are against criminal crony behavior to join in against the fraud and lies of the common enemy-Wall Street Do that by helping to make peace out there and not drive away the libertarians & moderate tea baggers/populists. The media (paid for by Wall Street) is using this protest to divide & destroy From: Nicholas Roberts Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:55 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37 there is plenty of nihilist Leftist critique out there also especially from the dinosaur vertical Marxists who have a big problem with the anarchic inspired bottom up processes common to these anti-capialist/alter-globalization movements in Europe there is a lot more big tent solidarity then on display in the US... too many old Marxists, who should just shut up and send food parcels, instead whinge about discipline and have created a mini industry critiquing the publications of the movements the old, crusty, seedy Marxists, always say, "There is No Left in the USA". Now its obviously not true, they say "There is no Real, Rigorous, Dialectically Sophisticated, Disciplined Left in the USA" Occupying Occupy Together ReplyNicholas Roberts via gmail.com to lbo-talk show details 12:29 PM (25 minutes ago) can I just make a general swing at the keyboard intellectuals. get of your arses and get down the places where people are gathering and get involved in the process its real easy to sit at home and read the amatuer, naive, often foolish media that comes out of these media events and spectacles even easier to type-up scathing nihilist critiques about the failure of the Left, the faults of the young, the weakness of the institutions etc etc etc etc etc there is plenty of material, and its been done, too much now is a time, to actually do something, and its time to be an organic intellectual and participate in the messy, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable realities of these kinds of democratic actions soon enough it will dissipate, and you can go back to eating the shit sandwhich of Amercian life but today, and for the next few days, there is something happening worth participating in take your intellect, your knowledge, your experience and GO HELP Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fw: Cheap "Jibe" at Protestors.... (robert searle) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
hi Natalie, do gooders vs savages to be contained seems to me part of the same classic opposition which could attain a higher integrative level, for example in p2p, I would say humans are seen as complex beings with both positive and negative characteristics in a dynamic balance, the answer is neither a system based on exploiting greed and self-interest and discouraging other expressions, as we have in the current neoliberal system, nor a system based on the belief that everybody is just simply innately good, but to create societies and social systems where the individual motivation and interest is aligned with the collective common good, not as an assumption (invisible hand), but as a 'designed'in' realitiy (the visible hand of wikipedia, linux, etc ..). Current p2p systems are based on Equipotentiality (see p2p wiki), but don't answer the wider injustices. Inequality is the main feeding system for injustice, and if not tackled leads to very exploitative societies, such as the one #OSW protesters are mobilizing against Michel On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:01 AM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello Michel-I see people born unequal physically (including mental capacities/many different intelligences) and developing even more so with differences in nurturing, family circumstances, culture, experience, accident, etc. Inequality can often be useful in directing talents to activities needed by the larger social entity. And these needs change over time in complex societies. Ethical governments work for equal opportunity and demand equal justice. That’s a tall order in itself as govts are composed of humans which can be tempted to work for themselves or subgroups. I believe there is an innate tribal instinct that persists, which makes it even more difficult for govts to function effectively in highly diverse populations. Socialism seems to work better in small, homogeneous nations. I see peers as cohort groups not as some kind of existential equivalents. Equality as a condition for liberty makes sense to me only as it pertains to a segment you’re holding constant. For example, citizens in Republican Rome were more equal in liberty (even though many termed non-citizens lived as slaves) than the citizens of a modern US state with all its legal protections. I think you’re expecting too much from govt. Our differences may be based on the contrary assumptions of whether we’re beasts that must be prevented from doing harm or Rousseau’s kind savages that just need an opportunity to do good. That’s the basic political split. My impressions from history point to the former view with hopeful allowances for the evolution of people & their govts.
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:41 AM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
Hi Natalie,
In my conception, equality is the condition for liberty and vice versa. How can you be free, when others are enslaved? Previous political eras mostly saw them as opposed, and this is pretty much what the struggle between socialism and liberalism was interpreted as being about, but in my opinion, and for an increased number of others, they have to be held together.
But perhaps you think of equality as sameness, etc ... Defining equality is quite complex I guess, with a polarity from equality of opportunity, on the progressive liberal side of things, to a demand for more actual 'real' equality,
see for example, http://p2pfoundation.net/Complex_Equality ; Peer to peer pretty much says it all, if you are unequal, you can't be a peer,
And why is equality important, especially now with #occupywallstreet, which is a quintessentially egalitarian movement?
First of all, because of this:
* http://p2pfoundation.net/Why_Greater_Equality_Makes_Societies_Stronger
and second, from the horses mouth, the IMF:
"Speaking of the 99% versus the 1% - a new report out of the International Monetary Fund finds that one of the greatest factors for prolonged economic growth in a nation is a low level of wealth inequality. By reviewing economies around the world – and looking at economic variables such as political institutions, debt, and trade – the study found that by far – it’s wealth inequality that has the greatest effect on sustained economic growth – and that if nations are made 10% more equitable in their wealth distribution – then they could see economic growth sustained for 50% longer. " (http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2011/10/speaking-99-versus-1)
and specially for you, from a libertarian manifesto:
- Concern for the downtrodden
Furthermore concern for the downtrodden follows from left-libertarian opposition to aggression against innocents. Those aggressed against- the oppressed- are just one group of the downtrodden.
- Current Distribution of wealth and land
Following from the previous post the recognition that current distribution of wealth and land is largely due to state intervention whether that be barriers to entry or statist privilege and that just because someone is wealthy need not mean they achieved it themselves and just because someone is poor does not mean that they make bad lifestyle choices.Following from this understanding we must reject classist prejudices.
(http://p2pfoundation.net/Left_Libertarianism)
On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
I question the concept of equalibery. Equal works in math formulas not human experience.
*From:* Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 8:02 PM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
It's not possible for people that strive for equaliberty to have full alliances with political forces that are for all practical purposes against equality ... however, it is possible to find commonality around practical demands, such as the Nader/Paul agreement (with proviso of their balanced budget clause, which should be opposed in the current context). Anarcho-capitalism is a contradiction in terms, the two terms are not compatible. (I say this as being identified with neither half)
but It seems to me that Natalie wants the overall majority of people at OWS to give up on their political identities, and that's not a realistic demand. The demand to absolutize the market form is not compatible with the mainstream demands of OSW .. this has nothing to do with a plot of the mainstream media, as if they are responsible for the Declaration of Wall Street Occupiers but with the consensus of the general assemblies ... As a consensus-based methodology, the agreement goes to the very basics of the common feeling, and does not go into detailed political demands of special political forces. Many people on the left are just as frustrated about the demands as Natalie is. Also, consensus is not permanent compromise and compromission, the result of the latter clearly visible in the permanent failure of the Obama administration.
I would say, focus on the demands that are compatible with your worldview and just participate in the assemblies to make your view heard ... as I understand it's a non-representational process, where each individual can have his voice heard, as an individual ...
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Natalie Golovin <[email protected]>wrote:
I think you mean the Federal Govt. Real democracy can thrive at the state and local levels if the “State” can be made to wither away a little.
*From:* michael gurstein <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 6:19 PM *To:* 'P2P Foundation mailing list'<[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
Hmmm...
M
The Libertarianism FAQ http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A6
A6. Do libertarians want to abolish the government?
Libertarians want to abolish as much government as they practically can. About 3/4 are "minarchists" who favor stripping government of most of its accumulated power to meddle, leaving only the police and courts for law enforcement and a sharply reduced military for national defense (nowadays some might also leave special powers for environmental enforcement). The other 1/4 (including the author of this FAQ) are out-and-out anarchists who believe that "limited government" is a delusion and the free market can provide better law, order, and security than any goverment monopoly.
Also, current libertarian political candidates recognize that you can't demolish a government as large as ours overnight, and that great care must be taken in dismantling it carefully.
-----Original Message----- *From:* [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Natalie Golovin *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 4:38 PM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
How so, Michael? The Libertarians aren’t for destruction of govt-they’re for limited & honest govt. Once the big money (provided by the FED in conjunction with lobbyists) is curtailed & global monopoly power is restricted-maybe govt can be unchained and responsive to the people.
*From:* michael gurstein <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:58 PM *To:* 'P2P Foundation mailing list'<[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
The problem Natalie is that the libertarians/tea baggers would destroy the only modality through which citizens can exert their will and do something about the mess...
The corporations aren't going to do it obviously, so who/what else other than a responsive and responsible government can act as a means for citizens to exert their power in a democracy.
Citizens need a structure to work through to exercise their power. To destroy government and sanctify corporate structures is to fall for the shell game that the Wall Street mob and their cronies are trying fob off as a political/economic theory.
The fact that the existing structures are corrupted means that the task of making them suitable for exercising this will is rather more difficult and long term but as Maggie Thatcher would say TINA.
M
-----Original Message----- *From:* [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Natalie Golovin *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 3:48 PM *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
You can increase your effectiveness Nicholas-by encouraging capitalists who are against criminal crony behavior to join in against the fraud and lies of the common enemy-Wall Street Do that by helping to make peace out there and not drive away the libertarians & moderate tea baggers/populists. The media (paid for by Wall Street) is using this protest to divide & destroy
*From:* Nicholas Roberts <[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:55 PM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] P2P-Foundation Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
there is plenty of nihilist Leftist critique out there also
especially from the dinosaur vertical Marxists who have a big problem with the anarchic inspired bottom up processes common to these anti-capialist/alter-globalization movements
in Europe there is a lot more big tent solidarity then on display in the US...
too many old Marxists, who should just shut up and send food parcels, instead whinge about discipline and have created a mini industry critiquing the publications of the movements
the old, crusty, seedy Marxists, always say, "There is No Left in the USA". Now its obviously not true, they say "There is no Real, Rigorous, Dialectically Sophisticated, Disciplined Left in the USA"
Occupying Occupy Together [image: Reply]Reply [image: More] Nicholas Roberts via<http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ctx=mail&answer=1311182> gmail.com to lbo-talk show details 12:29 PM (25 minutes ago) can I just make a general swing at the keyboard intellectuals.
get of your arses and get down the places where people are gathering and get involved in the process
its real easy to sit at home and read the amatuer, naive, often foolish media that comes out of these media events and spectacles
even easier to type-up scathing nihilist critiques about the failure of the Left, the faults of the young, the weakness of the institutions etc etc etc etc etc
there is plenty of material, and its been done, too much
now is a time, to actually do something, and its time to be an organic intellectual and participate in the messy, smelly, noisy, uncomfortable realities of these kinds of democratic actions
soon enough it will dissipate, and you can go back to eating the shit sandwhich of Amercian life
but today, and for the next few days, there is something happening worth participating in
take your intellect, your knowledge, your experience and GO HELP
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Fw: Cheap "Jibe" at Protestors.... (robert searle)
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I'm a bit surprised to read your dialogue. I agree that "keyboard intellectuals" could benefit from diving into the crowd and free their affect and cry a bit into oblivion with the street poets. It's always an eye opener to change perspectives, and behind a keyboard, all the keys tend to end up being square. Not that I have anything against Deleuze who spent his life between walls, but I think the air of the places has a nice scent these days on our unique Spaceship Earth. One of the very fundamental aspects of the success of this movement so far, lies in the ability of the people to leave their old clothes and wear the mask of anonymity: it's urbanism realized, beyond the safety of individualism, beyond the point of isolation, into a new opportunity for anyone to re-adjust their own relationships without feeling the burden of previous choices, that were necessarily wrong. It's not a tabula rasa, but an important cleanup for a lot of people. If I had to blame someone in these days, I would blame the chair, for it keeps me from moving my ass and dancing with my fellow humans, leading to indifference and apathy; I would blame artificial light, for it hurts my vision and makes me forgetful of the sheer number of stars in the sky, each an unknown and beautiful possibility; I would blame linear time, that works perfectly for machine and process synchronization, but makes me dull and forgetful about the fundamental irregularity of my pulse, and the power of affection. The time to fight against is now past and obsolete: we need to build the ways and means of our consistency, following the integrity that has brought momentum, and understand that walking together with trust, we project the force that will eventually make violence fail en masse. Cheer up, == hk
participants (5)
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hellekin -
michael gurstein -
Michel Bauwens -
Natalie Golovin -
Nicholas Roberts