or ... we can create collaboratives to work on the development of tools together,

and then use the tools to generate our own markets and economic opportunities... 

For setting up such collaboratives, we need to generate sufficient engagement, a plan, and find some financing.

On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Michel Bauwens <michel@p2pfoundation.net> wrote:

I think there are two different issues here,

one is the proposal, which has to go through the darwinian process of being discussed, accepted, rejected by individuals and communities of interest ... ; the only thing to do here is to refine and spread the proposal and interact with whomever is interested ... but we live in age of a cambrian explosion of transformative proposals, so it won't be easy. Better in my opinion is to engage with social movements that are maximally close to the values and ideas you propose.

the second is making a living; it is almost impossible to make a living with reform ideas only , though not impossible, as our work with the p2p-f shows; but I would not recommend the hardship to anyone; and my hunch is that professionalisation is needed at some point, i.e. transforming into an institution that can guarantee at least some livelyhoods for core organizers

finding the common ground between one's passion, one's skills, and social needs is the holy grail, but this is very hard to do in the realm of ideas,

Michel

On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 3:41 PM, <p2p-foundation-request@lists.ourproject.org> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Do we know about Linked Data ? Are we interested is
      understanding its potentials ? Quick survey - Thanks !
      (Brent Shambaugh)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 15:59:34 -0600
From: Brent Shambaugh <brent.shambaugh@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Do we know about Linked Data ? Are we interested
        is understanding its potentials ? Quick survey - Thanks !
To: Dante-Gabryell Monson <dante.monson@gmail.com>,     P2P Foundation
        mailing list <p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org>
Cc: Dan Robles <ingenesist@gmail.com>, Ishan Shapiro
        <ishanshapiro@gmail.com>,       Jim Lee <jim@climateviewer.com>,        Fernanda
        Ibarra <fernanda@thetransitioner.org>,  Connor Turland
        <connorturland@gmail.com>,      Benjamin Brownell <solaureum@gmail.com>,
        Helene Finidori <hfinidori@gmail.com>,  Eric Harris-Braun
        <eric@harris-braun.com>,        heather vescent <heathervescent@gmail.com>,
        Vinay Gupta <hexayurt@gmail.com>, Suresh Fernando
        <suresh2323@gmail.com>, "me@larky.org" <me@larky.org>, Michel Bauwens
        <michelsub2004@gmail.com>,      Arthur Brock <artbrock@geekgene.com>
Message-ID:
        <CACvcBVqcdD7rppeshih8-87UxTR-9EY7MXedjhq8VWRLdcGT3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi All,

Since around mid-march or so I've spent time trying to refining the ideas
from my Distributed Economy blog (
http://www.adistributedeconomy.blogspot.com/) into a proposal. I kind of
felt like I was teaching myself all of computer science. Even though I felt
I was learning quite a bit, it came at a considerable cost to myself. It is
hard to think in a peer-to-peer fashion while questioning the fabric of
academia and industry. I felt that I did not fit in anywhere and was unsure
build a business model around it. Physically, it seemed that way too. I
also became very cynical. I grew isolated, but thought I needed time for
self-study so what I was writing was credible, competitive and lucid enough
that I could put faith in it to be confident with others. Still, it's scope
was huge, enough to be not taken seriously by itself I guess. I felt I
basically was trying to change the operating system of the planet, and
everything else was built on top of that (businesses, academia, etc...).
Was the value network the business model? That, and maybe support? Do I
just try to start something like Linux and hope for the best? That's the
sort of scale I was envisioning. Fortunately, the web efforts have done a
lot of the groundwork. It's more of a use then. It's hard to say I did much
beyond understanding and some aggregation of connections that others might
not have seen. People tell you to hold on to some things in private, while
at the same time you want to integrate with the rest of the community.
Maybe what I have is significant, maybe it is not. It would be great to
share it. I believe enough in it to think it could help people. I'm almost
done with what seems to resemble a 20 page outline. I do not want to
fragment the community (or be fragmented from it), but at the same time I
need some sustainable way to survive. Paradoxically, it seems it needs the
support and the efforts and the ideas of the community to succeed. Are
there any solutions? I'm sorry if I come off as arrogant in any way.

-Brent


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 11:50 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
dante.monson@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Eric
>
> Yes, I'd be glad to follow up on the thinking and research you are doing
> around metacurrency, and participate in the scheduled hang out.
>
> further note :
> an interesting reply by June on this thread,
> also available on the public p2pf list archive
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org/
>
>
>    - [P2P-F] Do we know about Linked Data ? Are we interested is
>    understanding its potentials ? Quick survey - Thanks !<http://www.mail-archive.com/p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org/msg01085.html>
>     Dante-Gabryell Monson
>       - Re: [P2P-F] Do we know about Linked Data ? Are we interested is
>       understanding its potentials ? Quick survey - Thanks !<http://www.mail-archive.com/p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org/msg01087.html>
>        June Gorman
>       - Re: [P2P-F] Do we know about Linked Data ? Are we interested is
>       understanding its potentials ? Quick survey - Thanks !<http://www.mail-archive.com/p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org/msg01088.html>
>        Dante-Gabryell Monson
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:43 PM, Eric Harris-Braun <eric@harris-braun.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> It turns out that where the technical side of the MetaCurrency Project
>> has led us has lots to do with Semantic Data or rather, from our point of
>> view, Semantic Computing.  Ceptr, the computing stack we are designing to
>> build our tools out of, pushes Semantics down into the lowest levels of the
>> stack, in a way that we haven't seen with the approaches inherent embodied
>> in RDF/URI.
>>
>> For folks interested in our approach, I'm scheduling a tech hang-out in
>> the next week or two. If you want to be notified of it please drop me a
>> line.
>>
>> -Eric
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
>> dante.monson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> *pre-note : I try to understand if we can , possibly collectively, *
>>> *write an article that could be published on the p2pfoundation blog,*
>>> *as to better explain, in words and with images / graphics , *
>>> *some of the potentials of building on, for example, Linked Data -
>>> and/or similar technologies enabling us to more easily redefine our
>>> realities collectively -*
>>>
>>>
>>> *If anyone wrote on these topics, or is interested in combining our
>>> efforts and research in writing about these topics, or if some can help in
>>> making such article in a enjoyable reading moment ( combining it with nice
>>> imagery and stories ? Like some science fiction authors manage to do - yet
>>> talking about the present ? ) it would be great.   I mean, not only about
>>> one specific application or project, but about the potential to work
>>> together on various applications based on common protocols. *
>>>
>>> *Some call it a "Global Brain" , or a "Web Operating System" , ... *
>>>
>>> *Below is what I want to say to open up the topics for now ... I am open
>>> to brainstorm further, and progressively collectively organize an easier to
>>> understand blog post, or series of blog posts, on such topics.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks Bob, Thanks Helene,
>>>
>>> for your replies.
>>>
>>> I sent this message initially motivated by the realization, after an
>>> email exchange with Michel.
>>>
>>> Michel pointed that in his view there seemed to be little interest
>>> regarding Linked Data / Semantic Web approaches on p2pf related forums.
>>>
>>> So I wondered if this was really the case, and if so, what could be the
>>> reason,
>>> and how could it be better communicated.
>>>
>>> Possibly showing how different projects may have an interest in using
>>> such technologies in their research and development of applications,
>>> showing overlap of different applications that want to embody such
>>> technologies,
>>> and overlap and re-use of the data generated by each of these
>>> applications to enable yet new applications.
>>>
>>> For example, Bob in collaboration with Sensorica for Open Value Network
>>> tools...
>>>
>>> Although the technologies can be re-used and adapted for a variety of
>>> applications,
>>> hence Netention ( mostly Seth coding for now ) researching approaches,
>>> and inviting others into such research and development, which hopefully can
>>> be re-used for Open Value Networks, or for alternative forms of learning
>>> building on available information on our wiki's , etc
>>>
>>> Other projects, such as metamaps, are also interested ( or already
>>> including ) such approaches ...
>>>
>>> Pavlik was already talking about FOAF ( one aspect / approach using
>>> Linked Data concepts ) many years ago.  I now notice Pavlik is regaining
>>> interest, including in Schema and Json , ... midst others, in support of
>>> Sharing Economy applications ?
>>>
>>> ///
>>>
>>> But in a larger sense, I feel it is about contributing to the
>>> development of remedies regarding Anoptism ( which Olivier talks about ,
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net/Anoptism , while facilitating at first
>>> Holoptism )
>>>
>>> In the understanding which I developed by interacting with Seth and
>>> others via lists such as "Global Survival List"<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/global-survival>
>>> ,
>>>
>>> such Web 3.0 approaches get us closer to the concept of " Noosphere "
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere
>>>
>>> Or should I be already speaking of Web 4.0 , since I can notice a
>>> convergence with artificial intelligence.
>>>
>>> See :
>>>
>>> http://novaspivack.typepad.com/RadarNetworksTowardsAWebOS.jpg
>>> ( and another graph about internet evolution
>>> http://www.didael.it/sito/evoluzione_web.htm  , also calling some
>>> phases we have technologies for and for which we need more collaboration in
>>> research to reduce the threshold for its usage , "the metaweb"
>>> http://koolaidantidote.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/metaweb_graph.gif )
>>>
>>> Emergent Collective Consciousness, Approaches to Collective
>>> Intelligence, to Emergent forms of Networked Political Economies, ...
>>>
>>> and can be combined with , for example, understanding in the field of
>>> Artificial Intelligence. ( could be interesting to refer to the Global
>>> Brain Institute ? http://globalbraininstitute.org/ )
>>>
>>> There are so many implications regarding decision making, collaboration
>>> and collective intelligence, learning, resource allocation , and even
>>> finance...
>>>
>>> I see a lot of parallels between the potentials of Linked Data
>>> approaches,
>>> and the spirit of the Meta Currency project.
>>>
>>> Although there are indeed different potential approaches and
>>> technologies,
>>> and hopefully we can choose inter-operable ones.
>>>
>>> There are series of existing Ontologies.  RDF Schema being one approach
>>> which seems to be receiving wider acceptance.
>>> There is also the use of Json.
>>>
>>> Then there is the potential combination between Folksonomies and
>>> Ontologies, into Folksontologies...    And I did not even mention other
>>> interesting approaches ( slightly different then the W3C approach ? ) ,
>>> such as that of Pierre Levy
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_L%C3%A9vy and IEML
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net/Information_Economy_Meta_Language
>>>
>>> At least in spirit, in my understanding of it. - for each application,
>>> various combinations of technologies may been considered,
>>>
>>> yet I see potential in enabling inter-operable formats, and data that
>>> can be re-used along compatible data graph approaches...
>>>
>>> How can this best be explained with imagery that anyone could understand,
>>> and beyond any one specific project ?   Enable the imagery of a new way
>>> of creating and using data... re-using such data, enabling us to
>>> contextualize and choose the ( political and economic ) "games" we play
>>> based on such contextualization layers ?
>>>
>>> Enabling us to interact with others, and across various applications,
>>> beyond any proprietary approaches, and beyond any social silos...
>>>
>>> Yet at the same time, enabling "machines" to understand ...
>>>
>>> Opening up whole new dimensions in terms of what seems to be widely
>>> called "The Internet of Things"<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_of_Things> /
>>> Spimes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spime> , including in support of
>>> the Sharing Economy, or better still in my view, A Contribution Economy
>>> based on Peer Production in support of the Commons.
>>>
>>> That this can be enabled by experimenting further with various existing
>>> modules and protocols... reducing threshold for their usage, reducing the
>>> threshold for generating data together, reducing the threshold for
>>> organizing ourselves using such data ...
>>>
>>> There are many more themes this relates to.
>>>
>>> For example, Architecture - Urbanism, etc
>>> ( such as Modular Parametric Design , based on Lego Like components that
>>> can easily be re-assembled ? )
>>>
>>> There are also many risks - and in my view, a need to think how we can
>>> be ahead of understanding the technology, to avoid it being used to trap us
>>> in it - and instead use it to liberate and empower us.
>>>
>>> Please feel free to correct me where you see fit, complement views, give
>>> your own perceptions, etc
>>>
>>> There is existing code from various projects for such kind of "Web 4.0"
>>> browsing - there has been already a lot of research.
>>>
>>> In my view, one of the main challenges now, is to get people to work
>>> together on open sourced code and libre licenses,
>>>
>>> for developing inter-operable tools using such open protocols...
>>>
>>> Making the various interfaces easier to understand and use...
>>>
>>> But first, in my view, we need to see if people grasp these concepts,
>>> and understand that these potentials are very real and are current - and we
>>> can participate in their development, and hopefully soon benefit from its
>>> potentials.
>>>
>>> Also, there is funding available - for those of us who are good with
>>> funding applications - and can enable access to such larger partnerships -,
>>> willing to contribute to the work of programmers, or willing to motivate
>>> programmers to converge around a commons oriented approach -
>>>
>>> see : http://fisa.future-internet.eu/index.php/FIA_Research_Roadmap
>>>
>>> http://cordis.europa.eu/fp7/ict/ssai/fp8preparations_en.html
>>>
>>> Note : There are also all kinds of existing video materials that can be
>>> used to illustrate such concepts...  I am willing to bring them together.
>>> Those who can do video editing, I d be interested in supporting research
>>> for creating a new video document too, in addition to blog articles.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Forwarded conversation
>>>
>>> Subject: Do we know about Linked Data ? Are we interested is
>>> understanding its potentials ? Quick survey - Thanks !
>>>  ------------------------
>>>
>>> From: *Dante-Gabryell Monson* <dante.monson@gmail.com>
>>> Date: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:50 AM
>>> To: p2p-foundation <p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org>
>>>
>>>
>>> What would be your answer ? ( reply on this list or in private to me )
>>>
>>> *A ) Interested in ( getting to know more about ) its potentials*
>>> *B ) Not interested*
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> *1 ) Never heard of Linked Data
>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linked_data>*
>>> *2 ) Know about it*
>>> *3 ) Actively researching Linked Data
>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linked_data> applications ( in support of p2p
>>> 4 commons ? )*
>>>
>>> ( or whatever other replies you wish to give )
>>>
>>> //
>>>
>>> Context of my question :
>>>
>>> Michel noted that in his view Linked Data has not been a topic with much
>>> interest on the p2pf related forums.
>>>
>>> I wish to understand if this is simply because not many of us know about
>>> Linked Data, and its potentials ?
>>>
>>> Or is it simply because it seemed too complex or technical to bring it
>>> up on this specific list ?
>>>
>>> I know some of us are working on Linked Data applications,
>>> including in support of Sharing Economy applications.
>>>
>>> I personally have been interested in some of its applications for a few
>>> years, without being a programmer.  I collaborated with a programmer over
>>> the last years, to explore some of the approaches that can be taken to
>>> create certain applications.
>>>
>>> ///
>>>
>>> The first aim I have with this email is to have some kind of quick ,
>>> hopefully sufficiently representative set of replies.  It does not have to
>>> be on the public list - you can also reply to me in private if you like.
>>>
>>> From there on, I wish to open up another thread to further explain what
>>> Linked Data can be used for with those of us who may have explored the
>>> topic and may see potential in supporting such research as to manifest them
>>> into certain applications, in support of , for example, p2p commons
>>> oriented political economies.
>>>
>>> Cordially,
>>> Dante
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------
>>> From: *Dante-Gabryell Monson* <dante.monson@gmail.com>
>>> Date: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:56 AM
>>> To: Connor Turland <connorturland@gmail.com>, Bob Haugen <
>>> bob.haugen@gmail.com>, Ishan Shapiro <ishanshapiro@gmail.com>, Benjamin
>>> Brownell <solaureum@gmail.com>, Arthur Brock <artbrock@geekgene.com>,
>>> Eric Harris-Braun <eric@harris-braun.com>, "me@larky.org" <me@larky.org>,
>>> elf Pavlik <perpetual-tripper@wwelves.org>, Dan Robles <
>>> ingenesist@gmail.com>, S H <seh999@gmail.com>, Helene Finidori <
>>> hfinidori@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> sent this to p2pf list ...
>>> Cordially, Dante
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------
>>> From: *Helene Finidori* <hfinidori@gmail.com>
>>> Date: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:33 AM
>>> To: Dante-Gabryell Monson <dante.monson@gmail.com>
>>> Cc: Connor Turland <connorturland@gmail.com>, Bob Haugen <
>>> bob.haugen@gmail.com>, Ishan Shapiro <ishanshapiro@gmail.com>, Benjamin
>>> Brownell <solaureum@gmail.com>, Arthur Brock <artbrock@geekgene.com>,
>>> Eric Harris-Braun <eric@harris-braun.com>, "me@larky.org" <me@larky.org>,
>>> elf Pavlik <perpetual-tripper@wwelves.org>, Dan Robles <
>>> ingenesist@gmail.com>, S H <seh999@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> Good idea.
>>>
>>> Wasn't this what we were trying to do at the Ouishare labs camp last
>>> May? Find ways to de-silo-ize the web, enable interoperability and info to
>>> 'find each other' based on people's (agent's') intentions and capacities?
>>>
>>> It would indeed be interesting to 'package' the 'value proposition' a
>>> bit :) in a compact and direct 'aha that's what I could use it for , or
>>> that's how it could concretely benefit society' generating way. And yes,
>>> create a collective...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------
>>> From: *Bob Haugen* <bob.haugen@gmail.com>
>>> Date: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:03 AM
>>> To: Dante-Gabryell Monson <dante.monson@gmail.com>
>>> Cc: Connor Turland <connorturland@gmail.com>, Ishan Shapiro <
>>> ishanshapiro@gmail.com>, Benjamin Brownell <solaureum@gmail.com>,
>>> Arthur Brock <artbrock@geekgene.com>, Eric Harris-Braun <
>>> eric@harris-braun.com>, "me@larky.org" <me@larky.org>, elf Pavlik <
>>> perpetual-tripper@wwelves.org>, Dan Robles <ingenesist@gmail.com>, S H <
>>> seh999@gmail.com>, Helene Finidori <hfinidori@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> We are doing some of what Linked Data requires: providing
>>> derefenceable URIs for all objects. Most have them now; all will have
>>> them eventually.
>>>
>>> We are not currently using or investigating RDF. We are starting to
>>> offer JSON as a serialization format, which so far is the only format
>>> that has been requested.  Would happily learn and use RDF if needed.
>>> We also plan to offer value streams (like activity streams but of
>>> value-creating and using activities).  The pace of offerings depends
>>> on somebody wanting to use them.
>>>
>>> ----------
>>> From: *Dante-Gabryell Monson* <dante.monson@gmail.com>
>>> Date: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:35 PM
>>> To: Helene Finidori <hfinidori@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> ... while at the same time enabling people to understand that this is a
>>> research project,
>>>
>>> that we do not have ready products, and that people are invited to
>>> contribute to make such visions into reality...   including via their own
>>> projects,
>>>
>>> using standardized modules and/or offering frameworks people can re-use
>>> for their own purposes...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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