On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks a lot. I started a github wiki page, citing the referata wiki page:
> https://github.com/valnet/valuenetwork/wiki/Value-Equations
>
> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Tiberius Brastaviceanu
> <tiberius.brastaviceanu@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I saved some info in the value equation OVN wiki page
>> http://valuenetwork.referata.com/wiki/The_Value_Equation#Background
>>
>> I also linked Lynn's document on value equation on this page, which is
>> itself linked on the main value equation page.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Michel Bauwens <michel@p2pfoundation.net>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> ok thanks!
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Give us until Jan 15 before (for example) publishing on P2PFoundation?
>>>>
>>>> In the meantime, feel free to share it with anybody who wants to join the
>>>> conversation. It's public-on-the-web now, and if people want to comment on
>>>> the document itself, we can give them permission. Maybe open up a copy for
>>>> both commenting and editing, if people want to get deep into it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 8:32 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>>> <michel@p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> when will this be shareable ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Michel
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 9:31 PM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess we should have known that Kurt would appear in that fascinating
>>>>>> origin story.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So here's a question, which I hope will stimulate a longer conversation
>>>>>> than an email thread, and may want to find another medium or two:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are close to having an actual value equation up and running. Just
>>>>>> starting to implement the actual distributions, but most of the structure
>>>>>> and logic is in place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It probably differs from what any of the originators had in mind.
>>>>>> Partly because we don't yet have some of the components people had in mind,
>>>>>> maybe because Tibi's ideas and/or the situation at Sensorica have changed,
>>>>>> and certainly because we are trying to design it in a general enough way to
>>>>>> handle all of the value equation ideas of the current groups that want to
>>>>>> use it. (And also probably because of lacks of skill and imagination...)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We will be documenting it in a lot of detail. Here's the first
>>>>>> installment, much more to come:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1h-t6p55KTK-zlXIH9gUG6TYiwj1ARk4dq0_Q9C5Wh80/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So we want to know what you all think about it. We think this is a
>>>>>> transformative idea (which is why we want the history to be part of the
>>>>>> documentation), and it needs a lot of ongoing thought and development (in
>>>>>> the sense of child development).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 11:46 PM, Kurt Laitner <klaitner@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks tibi for noticing :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have used "value equation" and "value networks" since the early
>>>>>>> 2000's in conversations about *net (after i forked the idea from my
>>>>>>> colleague's concept of 'powernet' who wanted to create a for-profit platform
>>>>>>> to take percentages of each transaction). We call something similar to *net
>>>>>>> "OVN's" (though the NRP concept is probably closer to *net than OVN is as
>>>>>>> *net is a platform with parametrized algorithms based on value accumulation
>>>>>>> in standardized value dimensions whose accumulations are determined through
>>>>>>> integration with all intermediating communications tech).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am still not familiar with stiegler's work, though I have seen his
>>>>>>> name mentioned many times in my travels (and here he is again!).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My concept of value equations is a dimensional weighted sum of 'pure'
>>>>>>> measures of value (not 'subjective Value' or the fictitious 'objective
>>>>>>> Value', though these can be derived from pure value by inspection and
>>>>>>> interpretation).  These dimensions are measures of activities that increase
>>>>>>> the probability of value creation, not the post facto priced exchange value
>>>>>>> of whatever is produced, not the subjective experience of value of
>>>>>>> participants.  Exchange is a special event that triggers distribution of
>>>>>>> whatever exchange value is offered (which is either an abstract value like
>>>>>>> money or something of subjective value to the recipient such as reputation).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The term 'value accounting' came up in convos of the SENSORICA mailing
>>>>>>> list. I am not sure who named it but i found it to resonate deeply with the
>>>>>>> conception of *net as a way to track relative value contributed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Much later Michel suggested 'contributory value accounting' as a topic
>>>>>>> I should write about and I like that term very much as it describes quite
>>>>>>> accurately the point of 'powernet' as it was conceived by myself and my
>>>>>>> colleague Reg Cheramy in the late 90's. The motivation for my sticking the
>>>>>>> wildcard symbol * in front instead of power is that any flow can be
>>>>>>> directed, not just power.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The new focus on the governance aspect evolved with my experiences
>>>>>>> with SENSORICA and other value networks, who all ultimately hit governance
>>>>>>> issues long before distribution of revenue questions.  The notion of
>>>>>>> decision making rights based on relative value contributed has always been a
>>>>>>> part of powernet (the power part) but its importance and priority over the
>>>>>>> revenue distribution piece has become clear over time and I coined the term
>>>>>>> 'governance equation' to reflect the symmetry of this concept with the
>>>>>>> 'value equation'.  The value equation is better framed as a 'distribution
>>>>>>> equation' for revenue (cash for now) as opposed to the governance equation
>>>>>>> as a  distribution equation for voting rights.  One can see many flavors of
>>>>>>> distribution equation to control various flows.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   I have never published formally and any ideas I have are a result of
>>>>>>> my experiences in this world, and things I have read and of course how they
>>>>>>> bounce off my unique existence.  When the frog hits the water there is a
>>>>>>> splash.  There is no merit in it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have never published and never researched what was already known in
>>>>>>> the subject area, and so I cannot complain when someone says the wheel I
>>>>>>> invented "from scratch" turns out to be highly derivative (what a shocker!).
>>>>>>> Indeed I don't even care.  The point is to get a working model of OVN's, so
>>>>>>> we can all attribute better in the future.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a matter of history though I can say that stiegler has had no
>>>>>>> direct influence on me (indirect..who knows?).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> /kdl
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Dec 27, 2014 12:51 PM, "Tiberius Brastaviceanu"
>>>>>>> <tiberius.brastaviceanu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think it is accurate to say that Bernard Stiegler had a
>>>>>>>> direct influence on the development of SENSORICA. I personally discovered
>>>>>>>> him perhaps a year ago.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The concepts and the language were developed in collaboration.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The precursor of the OVN model is the "Discovery Network" model that
>>>>>>>> I proposed in September 2010. The term used was value exchange system,
>>>>>>>> instead of value accounting system. At this moment, the concept of value
>>>>>>>> equation was not formed. As you can see in the document, the allocation of
>>>>>>>> equity was governed by a set of rules through a mechanism of negotiation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The first document that described the OVN model is the Value System
>>>>>>>> document. It was first created in April 2011. The expression valuation
>>>>>>>> mechanism was used to name of the section that mentioned a mathematical
>>>>>>>> formula for calculating fluid equity. So the idea of a mathematical formula,
>>>>>>>> an equation, was there from the beginning. For an entire year, there were
>>>>>>>> discussions between myself, Steve, Kurt and Bayle about how to calculate it.
>>>>>>>> See the attached screenshot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I introduced the expression "value accounting system" in this doc, on
>>>>>>>> March 02, 2012.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On March 13, 2012 the expression "value equation" appears in the doc
>>>>>>>> for the first time, in conjunction with a comment made by Kurt on the
>>>>>>>> mailing list. The earliest occurrence of the expression "value equation" in
>>>>>>>> SENSORICA's mailing list is in early September 2011, used by Kurt again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kurt later proposed the concept of "governance equation".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is what I got doing my little investigation. Isn't it nice to
>>>>>>>> have history recorded?!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>>>>>>> <michel@p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Interesting to know indeed if Stiegler's work has been influential
>>>>>>>>> on the open value accounting idea
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> you will have noticed it is mentioned in my annual review here,
>>>>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net/Top_Ten_P2P_Trends_of_2014
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bernard: can you point us to english material on your work,
>>>>>>>>> especially on your concept of the 'revenu contributif', which I would like
>>>>>>>>> to give more support in the coming year ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> for info on those who missed it:
>>>>>>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net/What_the_P2P_Foundation_Did_in_2014
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 10:09 PM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Adding Michel to this message, because I want to broaden the
>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>> I think the value equation might have some roots in Bernard
>>>>>>>>>> Stiegler's
>>>>>>>>>> concept of the economy of contribution.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do you all think this is accurate? Were Stiegler's ideas a direct
>>>>>>>>>> influence on Sensorica, or more like an idea in the air like a
>>>>>>>>>> wind-blown seed that falls on ready soil, or not in the picture? Or
>>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>>> I missing something else, or misunderstanding completely?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 8:12 AM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> > I mean not only the name but also the idea.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > As far as I know, they both originated at Sensorica. Probably
>>>>>>>>>> > with
>>>>>>>>>> > you. Do you know different?
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > I'm adding some background to our value equation tutorial and
>>>>>>>>>> > incidental writings. So I guess the proper question is, how do
>>>>>>>>>> > you
>>>>>>>>>> > want to be cited?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
>>>>>>>>> http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens;
>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> t!b!
>>>>>>>> co-founder of SENSORICA,
>>>>>>>> an open, decentralized and self-organizing
>>>>>>>> value network (an open enterprise)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> founder of Multitude Project
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Google Profile
>>>>>>>> Facebook Tiberius Brastaviceanu
>>>>>>>> Twitter  @TiberiusB
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
>>>>> http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan
>>>>>
>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>
>>>>> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>
>>>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
>>> http://en.wiki.floksociety.org/w/Research_Plan
>>>
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>
>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> t!b!
>> co-founder of SENSORICA,
>> an open, decentralized and self-organizing
>> value network (an open enterprise)
>>
>> founder of Multitude Project
>>
>> Google Profile
>> Facebook Tiberius Brastaviceanu
>> Twitter  @TiberiusB