On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 1:41 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004@gmail.com> wrote:
> there are conflicts about fairness and fair rewards, which I would not call
> capitalist infighting, since it based on feelings of justice , reciprocity
> etc..
>
> and then there are conflicts where people want more than the other, and use
> market dynamics to get it,
>
> is that the case in the faircoin community ?

Both cases, I think. This is not true of all or even a majority of the
people. But enuf to make a difference in the atmosphere.

> Michel
>
> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:38 PM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I agree that crypto currencies are taking off, and we know people who
>> have made some money and are now trying to do things with it.
>>
>> We also see for example Fair.coop that is able to pay people because
>> of their successful crypto currency, but it has also engendered a lot
>> of infighting along totally capitalist principles. So I agree at least
>> partly with Michael. Not everybody descended into competition, but
>> enough to make the atmosphere smell of sulfur and brimstone now and
>> then...
>>
>> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 12:26 PM, Michel Bauwens
>> <michelsub2004@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > there is a paradox though,
>> >
>> > * sovereign money is still going strong
>> >
>> > * complementary curriencies exist in spades, but are everywhere really
>> > marginal
>> >
>> > * Crypto currencies have many problematic aspects, but they are
>> > generating
>> > massive investments in new infrastructures
>> >
>> > * we have theories of what money should be, but they are not implemented
>> > ...
>> >
>> > in that context, taking something that seems to take root, but
>> > transforming
>> > it to broader egaliterian interests, seems a good strategy
>> >
>> > On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 6:17 PM, Michael Linton
>> > <michael.linton@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> There's much good thinking here, but thinking still inside the old
>> >> familiar box of asset, control, property, distribution ....
>> >>
>> >> So their ideas are still firmly embedded in systems of rivalrous
>> >> competition.
>> >>
>> >> The ends they project can be much more easily achieved by other means.
>> >> A
>> >> few days ago on a thread about "weaponized" currencies, I wrote
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> The Rivalrous and the Anti-Rivalrous | Deep Code Experiment: Episode 2
>> >>> -
>> >>> Jordan Greenhall on a roll
>> >>>
>> >>> STIR (2013) - the key distinction is this.  Some moneys are supposed
>> >>> to
>> >>> be material in nature - and so are scarce, tokens of property.  There
>> >>> are
>> >>> other moneys that measure, and are not scarce at all.   Currencies
>> >>> that are
>> >>> based on scarcity are de facto competitive - pointed sticks at the
>> >>> core.
>> >>>
>> >>> So the new crypto-currencies are most generally weaponized, and that's
>> >>> no
>> >>> country for old men like me.  My interest is in the dmz of money.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> From where they look, this is all they are going to see.  But it's not
>> >> all
>> >> there is.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 3:51 AM, Bob Haugen <bob.haugen@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I'd like to see a real life somewhat-populated with real people
>> >>> example of how this is supposed to work and what this is supposed to
>> >>> enable.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 4:01 AM, Michel Bauwens
>> >>> <michelsub2004@gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> > This article from Dick Bryan is the first one bringing it all
>> >>> > together,
>> >>> > giving clear criterial for p2p/commons oriented crypto developments,
>> >>> > I
>> >>> > had
>> >>> > intuited some of them, but was not able to bring it all together yet
>> >>> > as
>> >>> > this
>> >>> > author has:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > https://medium.com/econaut/what-is-a-crypto-economy-155bdbc4ab1d
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Some criteria to look for (via Dick Bryan):
>> >>> >
>> >>> > 1. "Programmable organizations enable production to be organized in
>> >>> > a
>> >>> > way
>> >>> > that makes social criteria the rationale for production; not a
>> >>> > constraint on
>> >>> > it."
>> >>> >
>> >>> > [1]
>> >>> >
>> >>> > 2. "The rise of ‘networks’ as modes of corporate organization breaks
>> >>> > down
>> >>> > the conventional means that differentiate one corporation from
>> >>> > another
>> >>> > and
>> >>> > challenges the principle of ‘competition’ as the driver of corporate
>> >>> > rationale. These are both issues that feature prominently in
>> >>> > decentralized
>> >>> > applications."
>> >>> >
>> >>> > [2]
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > * 3. Mechanisms, like tokens, that allow surplus value to be
>> >>> > retained
>> >>> > by the
>> >>> > workers, not capital.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > " Changes in the nature of work (precarization, casualization,
>> >>> > subcontracting, the rise of the gig economy) see workers carrying
>> >>> > greater
>> >>> > risks and break down the attachment of work and living standards to
>> >>> > employment. There is growing interest in alternative ways of
>> >>> > organizing
>> >>> > work." [3]
>> >>> >
>> >>> > 4. "the real potential is cryptocurrencies as units of account: as
>> >>> > modes of
>> >>> > measuring economic activity that are conceived differently from
>> >>> > those
>> >>> > intrinsic to fiat money. Fiat money has become tied to conventional
>> >>> > framings
>> >>> > of profit and loss, income and expenditure, and a market-centred
>> >>> > calculus.
>> >>> > Non-fiat monies have the potential for developing new ways to
>> >>> > calculate
>> >>> > economic activity; ways that represent different social and economic
>> >>> > values,
>> >>> > and measure performance by criteria other than profit. Think about
>> >>> > it
>> >>> > for a
>> >>> > moment. The unit of account potential signals the importance of the
>> >>> > crypto
>> >>> > economy developing ways (not a singular way, but coin-specific ways)
>> >>> > of
>> >>> > accounting and measuring the activities supported by each token. We
>> >>> > see
>> >>> > this
>> >>> > as central to giving tokens a material basis in the crypto economy;
>> >>> > not
>> >>> > just
>> >>> > leaving them as speculative stores of value. .... "Exchange is often
>> >>> > between
>> >>> > parties of unequal power, so mutual gain cannot be presumed. An
>> >>> > important
>> >>> > issue of the crypto economy is how blockchain can and cannot
>> >>> > countermand
>> >>> > asymmetrical power in trade. We see blockchain not facilitating
>> >>> > frictionless
>> >>> > markets but rather frictionless capital: distributed capital." [4]
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --
>> >>> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>> >>> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> >>> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
>> >>> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> >>> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>> >
>> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>> >
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
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>
> --
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>
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