Thanks, Christine! Here are also some more thoughts on "Why Abolition Is The Response To Surveillance" https://gitlab.com/-/snippets/2179387 ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Christine Dann <[email protected]> Date: Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [PeDAGoG] [vikalp-sangam-list] A new article on RED website - "We thought it was fiction" To: <[email protected]> I think you might find some answers to your questions in this article, Hari - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/04/surveillance-state-september-1... It gives a very detailed account of how biased, excessive and either damaging or ineffective the state and corporate spying in the USA has been post 9/11. Also phenomenally expensive. More information on how the spying potential of IT is abused by states is available from the University of Toronto's Citizen Lab ( https://citizenlab.ca/). Last year it exposed the hacking of journalists' phones by an Israeli spy agency. This has literally put lives in danger, and may have contributed to the murder of the journalist Jamal Kashoggi in the Saudi Arabian consulate in Istanbul in 2018. One of the few clever and positive uses of technology to keep people safe recently is the international anti-drug smuggling initiative reported on here - https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/11/inside-story-most-dar... In this instance, however, only those people who were known bad actors or in close contact with bad actors were targetted for surveillance - and this is how any legitimate surveillance operation should work. Sadly, it is far more common for 'good actors' - like those protesting racism, or reporting on state misdemeanours, for example - to be targetted and harassed, which is just a giant form of state 'phishing' - completely illegitimate and it should stop immediately. But as I don't see any chance that the military-industrial complex (now including Big Tech) is about to stop working for and with the Market-State any where any time soon, and as demands for ethical behaviour don't cut any ice on this issue as with climate change and so many others, I think the only realistic position for good actors, be they activists or journalists, is to assume that their digital communication devices can and will be hacked at any time, and to take every precaution accordingly. Including not using a 'smart' phone at all, as in the preference of one investigative journalist I know. Hope this helps! Christine On 20/09/21 1:17 am, Hari DK wrote: I'm genuinely interested and curious in this, since part of my interest is in making data- and AI-based platforms 'safe' enough to enable applications of various sorts. Please entertain these questions/challenges from someone who neither pretends to be an activist nor an expert on the topic. Hopefully the discussion won't get 'acrimonious'! 1) "But to be effective, it must be blanket: no more spying software. Abolition. Period." We live in a path-dependent world. A lot of the acceleration of spying technologies has been in the aftermath of 9/11 and we should factor that into the explanation of its presence. Would you still support the abolition of spying software if it meant a 9/11 this year? This week? Tomorrow? Every day? 2) Keeping the above in mind, surely surveillance to a *reasonable extent *is the price we have to pay in order to secure ourselves from ourselves. "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty". Could I suggest that, if this is so, instead of a blanket abolition of spying, we should push for better and more oversight through proper governance and process? 3) If you say that better process on when and how to engage spying technology is not possible, then may I say to you - your agenda of "revolution" to achieve this seems to be much more impossible! What are you going to do - force every spying node on the Internet to decommission its tech? How? By pointing a gun to their head? I'm just the messenger, with a curiosity to learn. Interested in the responses! Thanks. On Sun, 19 Sept 2021 at 00:22, Pallav Das <[email protected]> wrote:

*"Among the most glaring omissions in our arsenal as a movement is the absence of a simple statement: we oppose government and corporate surveillance of all kinds, we will never support it, and we will not work with anyone who does. "*

Friends,

A new article, "We thought it was fiction", has been uploaded to the Radical Ecological Democracy website. Alfredo Lopez, Melanie Bush, Hamid Khan and Ken Montenegro, our colleagues from "May First Movement Technology", discuss the threat posed by Pegasus, the malicious hacking software, and how the progressive and “alternatives” communities should organize to push back against this steady erosion of people’s rights, and work to end tech dominance and intrusion into our lives. Please share the article with your networks and join the discussion on REDlistserv. The authors are copied here in case you would like to contact them directly.

https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/we-thought-it-was-fiction/

Best,

Pallav

Read more <https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/we-thought-it-was-fiction/> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Vikalp-sangam-list" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/vikalp-sangam-list/CAL3de_ZBkPgKD0tFt9cZFE... <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/vikalp-sangam-list/CAL3de_ZBkPgKD0tFt9cZFEZgTcQSuaGdt6_j68JwyqjDdXsyCw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> .

-- Hari Dilip Kumar *The Sustainability Problemsolver <http://www.haridk.me> | Initiative for Climate Action <https://actionclimate.org/>* *LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-dilip-kumar-4b566621/>* | *Skype *haridk.skype _______________________________________________ GTA-PeDAGoG mailing [email protected]http://lists.ourproject.org/mailman/listinfo/gta-pedagog _______________________________________________ GTA-PeDAGoG mailing list [email protected] http://lists.ourproject.org/mailman/listinfo/gta-pedagog -- ............................................. Rod Bush: Lessons from a Radical Black Scholar on Liberation, Love, and Justice Open access download for teaching purposes <https://www.okcir.com/product/rod-bush-lessons-from-a-radical-black-scholar-on-liberation-love-and-justice/> https://rodbush.org/ *********************************************************************** Tensions in the American Dream: Rhetoric, Reverie or Reality <http://tupress.temple.edu/book/0399> Free with audible trial: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07F44CBLK?ref=adbl_mfpdp_owns Author proceeds go to Cooperation Jackson <https://cooperationjackson.org/> .......................................... Everyday Forms of Whiteness: Understanding Race in a "Post-Racial" World <https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780742599994/Everyday-Forms-of-Whiteness-Understanding-Race-in-a-'Post-Racial'-World-Second-Edition> *Eternal and infinite love for you, yours & the ongoing struggle * *for dignity, justice, wisdom and peace.*

To be clear, your mischaracterization of "committed to learning and collaboration in our journeys towards the abolition of state violence of all sorts, and welcome dialogue that moves us in that direction" with "critical questioning may not be welcome" is precisely why these discussions need to happen in public and apologists for settler colonialism and fascism need to be exposed. Thank you for your exposure. --ken Ken Montenegro :: Technologist, Lawyer, Factotum :: https://flowcrypt.com/me/kmontenegro On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 12:38 PM Hari DK <[email protected]> wrote:

Dear Christine,

Thank you for your balanced comments and links to reading. Of course I don't disagree with what you say. Will think over as I learn more. It's also interesting that those who spy on us have also had their own privacy removed. According to Snowden's book, *Permanent Record,* it was fully possible to enter even the President of the USA's name in XKEYSCORE searches, etc.

Dear Ken, Melanie, Alfredo, Hamid,

Thank you for your comments. I am still not sure I agree with your conclusions. However, I will step out of the discussion as you have mentioned that critical questioning may not be welcome. Good luck on your endeavour,

Best,

On Thu, 23 Sept 2021 at 18:52, Pallav Das <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Friends,

The following response from the authors of the latest article on the Radical Ecological Democracy website, "We thought it was fiction" was just uploaded on Gitlab. I'm copying it here for the larger readership. A couple of other previous responses are also copied further below. We look forward to a healthy discussion.

From* Ken Montenegro, Melanie Bush, Alfredo Lopez and Hamid Khan:*

In discussions about weaponized surveillance, people will sometimes raise questions such as:

1. Would you support the abolition of spying software if it meant increasing terror attacks because there is no monitor? 2. Why can’t we just regulate these weapons given that “vigilance is the price of liberty”? Isn’t surveillance a small price to pay for safety? 3. Isn’t it impossible to undo the spying built-into modern technology? 4. What do we have to hide?

We support an abolitionist approach precisely because spying software has not prevented terror attacks. Moreover, the focus of avoiding imaginary terror attacks avoids responsibility for the settler colonialist origins of what the Stop LAPD Spying Coalition called the “stalker state.” The relationship between anti-Blackness and the national security police state is made evident here: https://stoplapdspying.medium.com/anti-blackness-and-the-national-security-p...) If we take an historical perspective and aspire to undo the harm these tools cause, then abolition is the only reasonable conclusion.

Abolition is the only reasonable conclusion precisely because attempts at reform or regulation end up as spectacular failures. In what is currently called the United States, brave folks have always fought to reign in police and state violence. Those efforts have largely failed because they preserve institutions and practices that are racist and violent to their core and from their very foundation. Folks who uphold specious arguments like, “you have nothing to hide” or “vigilance is the price of liberty” fail to acknowledge how Indigenous and Black folks in the United States have always borne the brunt of state surveillance and its ensuing violence. It is part and parcel of the very system itself as a means of control and management. Abolition removes the “price” from “liberty”; it makes it free.

We are committed to a long-term struggle toward that freedom. While it might seem that a world without rampant digital surveillance is impossible, we are dedicated to visions of change where technology is about improving life and not controlling others. We know there is a possible alternative because rampant corporate & governance surveillance is new. Twenty years ago, such a dystopia was unimaginable.

Finally, we don’t see questions like the ones above being rooted in affirming life. Often these questions above are used facetiously to discredit or seem “right” about the issue of surveillance and to defend an indefensible system of colonial, capitalist, white supremacist, and patriarchy. May First Movement Technology is committed to learning and collaboration in our journeys towards the abolition of state violence of all sorts, and welcome dialogue that moves us in that direction.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you might find some answers to your questions in this article, Hari -

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/04/surveillance-state-september-1...

It gives a very detailed account of how biased, excessive and either damaging or ineffective the state and corporate spying in the USA has been post 9/11. Also phenomenally expensive.

More information on how the spying potential of IT is abused by states is available from the University of Toronto's Citizen Lab ( https://citizenlab.ca/). Last year it exposed the hacking of journalists' phones by an Israeli spy agency. This has literally put lives in danger, and may have contributed to the murder of the journalist Jamal Kashoggi in the Saudi Arabian consulate in Istanbul in 2018.

One of the few clever and positive uses of technology to keep people safe recently is the international anti-drug smuggling initiative reported on here - https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/11/inside-story-most-dar... In this instance, however, only those people who were known bad actors or in close contact with bad actors were targetted for surveillance - and this is how any legitimate surveillance operation should work.

Sadly, it is far more common for 'good actors' - like those protesting racism, or reporting on state misdemeanours, for example - to be targetted and harassed, which is just a giant form of state 'phishing' - completely illegitimate and it should stop immediately.

But as I don't see any chance that the military-industrial complex (now including Big Tech) is about to stop working for and with the Market-State any where any time soon, and as demands for ethical behaviour don't cut any ice on this issue as with climate change and so many others, I think the only realistic position for good actors, be they activists or journalists, is to assume that their digital communication devices can and will be hacked at any time, and to take every precaution accordingly. Including not using a 'smart' phone at all, as in the preference of one investigative journalist I know.

Hope this helps!

Christine

On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 2:52 PM Pallav Das <[email protected]> wrote:

...

*"Among the most glaring omissions in our arsenal as a movement is the absence of a simple statement: we oppose government and corporate surveillance of all kinds, we will never support it, and we will not work with anyone who does. "*

Friends,

A new article, "We thought it was fiction", has been uploaded to the Radical Ecological Democracy website. Alfredo Lopez, Melanie Bush, Hamid Khan and Ken Montenegro, our colleagues from "May First Movement Technology", discuss the threat posed by Pegasus, the malicious hacking software, and how the progressive and “alternatives” communities should organize to push back against this steady erosion of people’s rights, and work to end tech dominance and intrusion into our lives. Please share the article with your networks and join the discussion on REDlistserv. The authors are copied here in case you would like to contact them directly.

https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/we-thought-it-was-fiction/

Best,

Pallav

Read more <https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/we-thought-it-was-fiction/>

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Vikalp-sangam-list" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/vikalp-sangam-list/CAL3de_b%3Dgs6AGr8b4rRy... <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/vikalp-sangam-list/CAL3de_b%3Dgs6AGr8b4rRyTj_oM4m_n3WEj2FsLFs_PtWaFR1uqQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> .

-- Hari Dilip Kumar

*The Sustainability Problemsolver <http://www.haridk.me> | Initiative for Climate Action <https://actionclimate.org/>* *LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-dilip-kumar-4b566621/>* | *Skype *haridk.skype

Friday, September 24, 2021 Greetings, all I’m here weighing in as list admin for WSMDiscuss, one of the lists where Pallav Das posted the article that we’re discussing here. I have my own thoughts and comments on the article, but here, I would just like to come in and request – as list admin - both ‘sides’ in the sharp exchange here to try and step back a bit, take a deep breath, and consider the enormous significance of the subject being discussed; and in this light – and heat -, try and modify language and position in ways that allow critical discussion to continue (including by staying in the space and conversation). Two things : One, and just for the record, Hari even anticipated this in his original post, as follows : Please entertain these questions/challenges from someone who neither pretends to be an activist nor an expert on the topic. Hopefully the discussion won't get 'acrimonious'! Please, let’s all try to take this into account ! And two, let’s also try and keep in mind that lists are - all said and done – not real world and time spaces, and so we all need to try to accordingly speak. There’s something ‘final’ about the written word… In hope that we all can – and that Hari, you will be willing to come back in – Jai Sen

On Sep 23, 2021, at 1:52 PM, Hari DK <[email protected]> wrote:

"Finally, we don’t see questions like the ones above being rooted in affirming life. Often these questions above are used facetiously to discredit or seem “right” about the issue of surveillance and to defend an indefensible system of colonial, capitalist, white supremacist, and patriarchy."

Ken - I interpreted this to mean "we don't like these questions". Apologies if that was not the case. I also don't think I am an apologist for settler violence or colonialism. Could we avoid ad hominem please?

Let's end the conversation since it serves no purpose. Thank you

On Thu, 23 Sept 2021 at 23:13, Ken Montenegro <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: To be clear, your mischaracterization of "committed to learning and collaboration in our journeys towards the abolition of state violence of all sorts, and welcome dialogue that moves us in that direction" with "critical questioning may not be welcome" is precisely why these discussions need to happen in public and apologists for settler colonialism and fascism need to be exposed. Thank you for your exposure. --ken Ken Montenegro :: Technologist, Lawyer, Factotum :: https://flowcrypt.com/me/kmontenegro <https://flowcrypt.com/me/kmontenegro>

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 12:38 PM Hari DK <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Dear Christine,

Thank you for your balanced comments and links to reading. Of course I don't disagree with what you say. Will think over as I learn more. It's also interesting that those who spy on us have also had their own privacy removed. According to Snowden's book, Permanent Record, it was fully possible to enter even the President of the USA's name in XKEYSCORE searches, etc.

Dear Ken, Melanie, Alfredo, Hamid,

Thank you for your comments. I am still not sure I agree with your conclusions. However, I will step out of the discussion as you have mentioned that critical questioning may not be welcome. Good luck on your endeavour,

Best,

On Thu, 23 Sept 2021 at 18:52, Pallav Das <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Friends,

The following response from the authors of the latest article on the Radical Ecological Democracy website, "We thought it was fiction" was just uploaded on Gitlab. I'm copying it here for the larger readership. A couple of other previous responses are also copied further below. We look forward to a healthy discussion.

From Ken Montenegro, Melanie Bush, Alfredo Lopez and Hamid Khan:

In discussions about weaponized surveillance, people will sometimes raise questions such as:

Would you support the abolition of spying software if it meant increasing terror attacks because there is no monitor? Why can’t we just regulate these weapons given that “vigilance is the price of liberty”? Isn’t surveillance a small price to pay for safety? Isn’t it impossible to undo the spying built-into modern technology? What do we have to hide? We support an abolitionist approach precisely because spying software has not prevented terror attacks. Moreover, the focus of avoiding imaginary terror attacks avoids responsibility for the settler colonialist origins of what the Stop LAPD Spying Coalition called the “stalker state.” The relationship between anti-Blackness and the national security police state is made evident here: https://stoplapdspying.medium.com/anti-blackness-and-the-national-security-p... <https://stoplapdspying.medium.com/anti-blackness-and-the-national-security-police-state-that-civil-liberties-advocacy-built-f8d1d5418c42>) If we take an historical perspective and aspire to undo the harm these tools cause, then abolition is the only reasonable conclusion.

Abolition is the only reasonable conclusion precisely because attempts at reform or regulation end up as spectacular failures. In what is currently called the United States, brave folks have always fought to reign in police and state violence. Those efforts have largely failed because they preserve institutions and practices that are racist and violent to their core and from their very foundation. Folks who uphold specious arguments like, “you have nothing to hide” or “vigilance is the price of liberty” fail to acknowledge how Indigenous and Black folks in the United States have always borne the brunt of state surveillance and its ensuing violence. It is part and parcel of the very system itself as a means of control and management. Abolition removes the “price” from “liberty”; it makes it free.

We are committed to a long-term struggle toward that freedom. While it might seem that a world without rampant digital surveillance is impossible, we are dedicated to visions of change where technology is about improving life and not controlling others. We know there is a possible alternative because rampant corporate & governance surveillance is new. Twenty years ago, such a dystopia was unimaginable.

Finally, we don’t see questions like the ones above being rooted in affirming life. Often these questions above are used facetiously to discredit or seem “right” about the issue of surveillance and to defend an indefensible system of colonial, capitalist, white supremacist, and patriarchy. May First Movement Technology is committed to learning and collaboration in our journeys towards the abolition of state violence of all sorts, and welcome dialogue that moves us in that direction.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you might find some answers to your questions in this article, Hari -

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/04/surveillance-state-september-1... <https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/04/surveillance-state-september-11-panic-made-us-vulnerable>

It gives a very detailed account of how biased, excessive and either damaging or ineffective the state and corporate spying in the USA has been post 9/11. Also phenomenally expensive.

More information on how the spying potential of IT is abused by states is available from the University of Toronto's Citizen Lab (https://citizenlab.ca/ <https://citizenlab.ca/>). Last year it exposed the hacking of journalists' phones by an Israeli spy agency. This has literally put lives in danger, and may have contributed to the murder of the journalist Jamal Kashoggi in the Saudi Arabian consulate in Istanbul in 2018.

One of the few clever and positive uses of technology to keep people safe recently is the international anti-drug smuggling initiative reported on here - https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/11/inside-story-most-dar... <https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/11/inside-story-most-daring-surveillance-sting-in-history> In this instance, however, only those people who were known bad actors or in close contact with bad actors were targetted for surveillance - and this is how any legitimate surveillance operation should work.

Sadly, it is far more common for 'good actors' - like those protesting racism, or reporting on state misdemeanours, for example - to be targetted and harassed, which is just a giant form of state 'phishing' - completely illegitimate and it should stop immediately.

But as I don't see any chance that the military-industrial complex (now including Big Tech) is about to stop working for and with the Market-State any where any time soon, and as demands for ethical behaviour don't cut any ice on this issue as with climate change and so many others, I think the only realistic position for good actors, be they activists or journalists, is to assume that their digital communication devices can and will be hacked at any time, and to take every precaution accordingly. Including not using a 'smart' phone at all, as in the preference of one investigative journalist I know.

Hope this helps!

Christine

On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 2:52 PM Pallav Das <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

"Among the most glaring omissions in our arsenal as a movement is the absence of a simple statement: we oppose government and corporate surveillance of all kinds, we will never support it, and we will not work with anyone who does. "

Friends,

A new article, "We thought it was fiction", has been uploaded to the Radical Ecological Democracy website. Alfredo Lopez, Melanie Bush, Hamid Khan and Ken Montenegro, our colleagues from "May First Movement Technology", discuss the threat posed by Pegasus, the malicious hacking software, and how the progressive and “alternatives” communities should organize to push back against this steady erosion of people’s rights, and work to end tech dominance and intrusion into our lives. Please share the article with your networks and join the discussion on REDlistserv. The authors are copied here in case you would like to contact them directly.

https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/we-thought-it-was-fiction/ <https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/we-thought-it-was-fiction/>

Best,

Pallav

Read more <https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/we-thought-it-was-fiction/>

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Vikalp-sangam-list" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/vikalp-sangam-list/CAL3de_b%3Dgs6AGr8b4rRy... <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/vikalp-sangam-list/CAL3de_b%3Dgs6AGr8b4rRyTj_oM4m_n3WEj2FsLFs_PtWaFR1uqQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

-- Hari Dilip Kumar

The Sustainability Problemsolver <http://www.haridk.me/> | Initiative for Climate Action <https://actionclimate.org/> LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-dilip-kumar-4b566621/> | Skype haridk.skype

-- Hari Dilip Kumar

The Sustainability Problemsolver <http://www.haridk.me/> | Initiative for Climate Action <https://actionclimate.org/> LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-dilip-kumar-4b566621/> | Skype haridk.skype

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Vikalp-sangam-list" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/vikalp-sangam-list/CA%2BbrHUaRmqCoJTSK81oP... <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/vikalp-sangam-list/CA%2BbrHUaRmqCoJTSK81oPa5yz3OcnF6G1XyXtdp1H%2BTytZeR%2Bjw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

____________________________ Jai Sen Independent researcher, editor; Senior Fellow at the School of International Development and Globalisation Studies at the University of Ottawa [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> & <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Now based in Ottawa, Canada, on unsurrendered Anishinaabe territory (+1-613-282 2900) and in New Delhi, India (+91-98189 11325) Check out something new – including for copies of the first two books below, at a discount, and much more : The Movements of Movements <https://movementsofmovements.net/> Jai Sen, ed, 2017 – The Movements of Movements, Part 1 : What Makes Us Move ?. New Delhi : OpenWord and Oakland, CA : PM Press. Ebook and hard copy available at PM Press <http://www.pmpress.org/>; hard copy only also at The Movements of Movements <https://movementsofmovements.net/> Jai Sen, ed, 2018a – The Movements of Movements, Part 2 : Rethinking Our Dance. Ebook and hard copy available at PM Press <http://www.pmpress.org/>; hard copy only also at The Movements of Movements <https://movementsofmovements.net/> Jai Sen, ed, 2018b – The Movements of Movements, Part 1 : What Makes Us Move ? (Indian edition). New Delhi : AuthorsUpfront, in collaboration with OpenWord and PM Press. Hard copy available at MOM1AmazonIN <https://www.amazon.in/dp/9387280101/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1522884070&sr=8-2&keywords=movements+of+movements+jai+sen>, MOM1Flipkart <https://www.flipkart.com/the-movements-of-movements/p/itmf3zg7h79ecpgj?pid=9789387280106&lid=LSTBOK9789387280106NBA1CH&marketplace=FLIPKART&srno=s_1_1&otracker=search&fm=SEARCH&iid=ff35b702-e6a8-4423-b014-16c84f6f0092.9789387280106.SEARCH&ppt=Search%20Page>, and MOM1AUpFront <http://www.authorsupfront.com/movements.htm> SUBSCRIBE TO World Social Movement Discuss, an open, unmoderated, and self-organising forum on social and political movement at any level (local, national, regional, and global). To subscribe, simply send an empty email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>

Thank you for inviting pause and intentionality Jai. That said, one challenge in discussions about surveillance is that prevarication and "both sides" means that more lives are lost and disrupted by state violence for the sake of civility/cooperation/etc. I would encourage us to remember that while it might seem like an academic or philosophical discussion, surveillance is violence; silence in the face of violence is arguably complicity. Best regards and I'm hopeful we can all work towards collective liberation. Like the Zapatistas said, "one world where many worlds are possible". --ken Ken Montenegro :: Technologist, Lawyer, Factotum :: https://flowcrypt.com/me/kmontenegro On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 11:32 AM Hari DK <[email protected]> wrote:

Sure Jai. Thanks for stepping in.

There are a lot of great discussions on these forums which I am slowly getting exposed to. I'd be happy to re-enter those in which all parties feel respected and in a safe space.

For the record, I've been listening and lurking quite a while here - with intent to learn. I also don't identify with political binaries, so that might be confusing for some folks (is 'forward' allowed as a political orientation?! 😆). Hopefully I will find mutual understanding in some particular exchanges.

Thank you,

On Fri, Sep 24, 2021, 8:55 PM Jai Sen <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Friday, September 24, 2021

Greetings, all

I’m here weighing in as list admin for WSMDiscuss, one of the lists where Pallav Das posted the article that we’re discussing here. I have my own thoughts and comments on the article, but here, I would just like to come in and request – as list admin - both ‘sides’ in the sharp exchange here to try and step back a bit, take a deep breath, and consider the enormous significance of the subject being discussed; and in this light – and heat -, try and modify language and position in ways that allow critical discussion to continue (including by staying in the space and conversation).

Two things : One, and just for the record, Hari even anticipated this in his original post, as follows :

Please entertain these questions/challenges from someone who neither pretends to be an activist nor an expert on the topic. Hopefully the discussion won't get 'acrimonious'!

Please, let’s all try to take this into account !

And two, let’s also try and keep in mind that lists are - all said and done – not real world and time spaces, and so we all need to try to accordingly speak. There’s something ‘final’ about the written word…

In hope that we all can – and that Hari, you will be willing to come back in –

Jai Sen

On Sep 23, 2021, at 1:52 PM, Hari DK <[email protected]> wrote:

"Finally, we don’t see questions like the ones above being rooted in affirming life. Often these questions above are used facetiously to discredit or seem “right” about the issue of surveillance and to defend an indefensible system of colonial, capitalist, white supremacist, and patriarchy."

Ken - I interpreted this to mean "we don't like these questions". Apologies if that was not the case. I also don't think I am an apologist for settler violence or colonialism. Could we avoid ad hominem please?

Let's end the conversation since it serves no purpose. Thank you

On Thu, 23 Sept 2021 at 23:13, Ken Montenegro < [email protected]> wrote:

...

To be clear, your mischaracterization of "committed to learning and collaboration in our journeys towards the abolition of state violence of all sorts, and welcome dialogue that moves us in that direction" with "critical questioning may not be welcome" is precisely why these discussions need to happen in public and apologists for settler colonialism and fascism need to be exposed. Thank you for your exposure. --ken Ken Montenegro :: Technologist, Lawyer, Factotum :: https://flowcrypt.com/me/kmontenegro

On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 12:38 PM Hari DK <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Dear Christine,

Thank you for your balanced comments and links to reading. Of course I don't disagree with what you say. Will think over as I learn more. It's also interesting that those who spy on us have also had their own privacy removed. According to Snowden's book, *Permanent Record,* it was fully possible to enter even the President of the USA's name in XKEYSCORE searches, etc.

Dear Ken, Melanie, Alfredo, Hamid,

Thank you for your comments. I am still not sure I agree with your conclusions. However, I will step out of the discussion as you have mentioned that critical questioning may not be welcome. Good luck on your endeavour,

Best,

On Thu, 23 Sept 2021 at 18:52, Pallav Das <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Friends,

The following response from the authors of the latest article on the Radical Ecological Democracy website, "We thought it was fiction" was just uploaded on Gitlab. I'm copying it here for the larger readership. A couple of other previous responses are also copied further below. We look forward to a healthy discussion.

From* Ken Montenegro, Melanie Bush, Alfredo Lopez and Hamid Khan:*

In discussions about weaponized surveillance, people will sometimes raise questions such as:

1. Would you support the abolition of spying software if it meant increasing terror attacks because there is no monitor? 2. Why can’t we just regulate these weapons given that “vigilance is the price of liberty”? Isn’t surveillance a small price to pay for safety? 3. Isn’t it impossible to undo the spying built-into modern technology? 4. What do we have to hide?

We support an abolitionist approach precisely because spying software has not prevented terror attacks. Moreover, the focus of avoiding imaginary terror attacks avoids responsibility for the settler colonialist origins of what the Stop LAPD Spying Coalition called the “stalker state.” The relationship between anti-Blackness and the national security police state is made evident here: https://stoplapdspying.medium.com/anti-blackness-and-the-national-security-p...) If we take an historical perspective and aspire to undo the harm these tools cause, then abolition is the only reasonable conclusion.

Abolition is the only reasonable conclusion precisely because attempts at reform or regulation end up as spectacular failures. In what is currently called the United States, brave folks have always fought to reign in police and state violence. Those efforts have largely failed because they preserve institutions and practices that are racist and violent to their core and from their very foundation. Folks who uphold specious arguments like, “you have nothing to hide” or “vigilance is the price of liberty” fail to acknowledge how Indigenous and Black folks in the United States have always borne the brunt of state surveillance and its ensuing violence. It is part and parcel of the very system itself as a means of control and management. Abolition removes the “price” from “liberty”; it makes it free.

We are committed to a long-term struggle toward that freedom. While it might seem that a world without rampant digital surveillance is impossible, we are dedicated to visions of change where technology is about improving life and not controlling others. We know there is a possible alternative because rampant corporate & governance surveillance is new. Twenty years ago, such a dystopia was unimaginable.

Finally, we don’t see questions like the ones above being rooted in affirming life. Often these questions above are used facetiously to discredit or seem “right” about the issue of surveillance and to defend an indefensible system of colonial, capitalist, white supremacist, and patriarchy. May First Movement Technology is committed to learning and collaboration in our journeys towards the abolition of state violence of all sorts, and welcome dialogue that moves us in that direction.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you might find some answers to your questions in this article, Hari -

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/04/surveillance-state-september-1...

It gives a very detailed account of how biased, excessive and either damaging or ineffective the state and corporate spying in the USA has been post 9/11. Also phenomenally expensive.

More information on how the spying potential of IT is abused by states is available from the University of Toronto's Citizen Lab ( https://citizenlab.ca/). Last year it exposed the hacking of journalists' phones by an Israeli spy agency. This has literally put lives in danger, and may have contributed to the murder of the journalist Jamal Kashoggi in the Saudi Arabian consulate in Istanbul in 2018.

One of the few clever and positive uses of technology to keep people safe recently is the international anti-drug smuggling initiative reported on here - https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/11/inside-story-most-dar... In this instance, however, only those people who were known bad actors or in close contact with bad actors were targetted for surveillance - and this is how any legitimate surveillance operation should work.

Sadly, it is far more common for 'good actors' - like those protesting racism, or reporting on state misdemeanours, for example - to be targetted and harassed, which is just a giant form of state 'phishing' - completely illegitimate and it should stop immediately.

But as I don't see any chance that the military-industrial complex (now including Big Tech) is about to stop working for and with the Market-State any where any time soon, and as demands for ethical behaviour don't cut any ice on this issue as with climate change and so many others, I think the only realistic position for good actors, be they activists or journalists, is to assume that their digital communication devices can and will be hacked at any time, and to take every precaution accordingly. Including not using a 'smart' phone at all, as in the preference of one investigative journalist I know.

Hope this helps!

Christine

On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 2:52 PM Pallav Das <[email protected]> wrote:

...

*"Among the most glaring omissions in our arsenal as a movement is the absence of a simple statement: we oppose government and corporate surveillance of all kinds, we will never support it, and we will not work with anyone who does. "*

Friends,

A new article, "We thought it was fiction", has been uploaded to the Radical Ecological Democracy website. Alfredo Lopez, Melanie Bush, Hamid Khan and Ken Montenegro, our colleagues from "May First Movement Technology", discuss the threat posed by Pegasus, the malicious hacking software, and how the progressive and “alternatives” communities should organize to push back against this steady erosion of people’s rights, and work to end tech dominance and intrusion into our lives. Please share the article with your networks and join the discussion on REDlistserv. The authors are copied here in case you would like to contact them directly.

https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/we-thought-it-was-fiction/

Best,

Pallav

Read more <https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/we-thought-it-was-fiction/>

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